Back to Basics - Riding In Dirt

[cmayer31 3]

I seem to be having issues getting comfortable on the XR650R and I'm looking for advice. The biggest issue I have is initial turn in of the bike; I just can't seem to get the bike pointed where I want to go and in turn I end up fighting most of the ride, wearing myself out, and get to the point where I'm literally stopping for relatively easy corners. Now this is only on dirt, sand, mud ect... on the pavement I get back into my normal groove and have no issue other than my complete lack of trust for the knobby tires.

When I try to use more lean and counter steer while off road I always have the feeling that I'm going to wash out the front end, and often times do. My only falls so far have been from losing the front end while turning. I'm working more and more on getting my weight to the outside peg, but when I do that I can't seem to get the turn initiated quick enough, and if I do I go right back to losing the front end.

I know 100% that these issues are my physical and mental ability to maneuver the big bike. Beezzz and some of my other friends have jumped on the bike, flung it around and have were fine on it.

Do most of you turn by weighting the pegs and using mostly leg/weight adjustments, do you use a lot of steering specifically counter steer, is it 50/50 mix? I've read and heard a lot about the BRP responding best to turning via throttle, but is this simply getting the back end spinning and sliding around to best steer, or is there much more to it? Essentially how do you turn? I get owned by 90 degree horseshoe turns and I'm not getting any better the more I practice. I'm actually getting worse because I overthink something as simple as turn the dang bike. Brake, look, lean, roll on throttle...works great on the road, but applied to dirt I mess it up.

I've read Keith Code's books on street riding and they've improved my street riding, but I can't seem to get it to click in the dirt. I've also watched dual sport specific DVD's and read a couple other books, but I learn by doing not by watching or reading. Does anyone have riding school recommendations? I need something above MSF, but not much above dirt wise. Any feedback on Motoventures? They're local and seem to have great variety of classes. I'd love to attend a school like that, but don't have a ton of money to spend if they're not worth it.

So in short. How on earth did I forget how to navigate a turn, and who has suggestions on how to relearn such a simple task?

[paulmbowers 236]

First, take a dirt riding course. That will help in a very BIG way. I wish I could tell you how I do it- weighting pegs, countersteer, etc, but honestly I don't know anymore.

I did (and do) struggle as well. I rode street bikes for years, took some time off, then re-entered the sport and spent the first year or two trying in vain to stay upright. I still learn every time I ride, and have a long way to go.

[RogerTOWM 0]

For a local dirtriding school I would try these two guys, http://www.dirtsafety.com/, they are local. They also are members of SDAR and give other members discounts for the classes. I took their class and look what it did for me! Oh wait… bad example… other people have taken the class and it has really helped improve their riding skills!

John and Rob are very patient and will help you work through your difficulties. The course goes through all the basics with lots of practical application. At the end of the class you will put everything together as they take you on a trail ride. If you learn by doing this is the class for you. You will have lots of doing.

[Crawdaddy 96]

Sounds like you may have a case of "paralysis of analysis".....I recognize the symptoms because I fall into the same trap sometimes........RELAX your upper body......steer from the feet up not the head down........you're likely freezing up a bit, unknowingly locking the forearms/elbows, and "pushing" through the turns causing you to go wide......relax, choose your line, feel the bike with your feet (if you can't feel it through the pegs you're not relaxed enough), brake early and/or drag the rear brake with a tad bit of throttle so you don't chunk it/stall mid turn, elbows out, throttle through the turn......at least that's what works for me.....

No need to drop big $$ on a Motoventures course.....the price is right for John/Rob's course regardless of skill level......one of these days I'll get off my ass and take it myself......

[TrophyHunter 15]

Craig,

I don't have advice, just a big Thank You! You've been working hard and posting your results. It has refocused me on making a concious effort to improve some of my riding blunders. As soon as I get the TTR90 running, I'm taking my step-daughter to carguy's class.....and joining in too.

I've read & watched a ton of street related stuff but currently don't have the skills to keep up with some of the folks here in the dirt.

Keep it up....it's probably helping others too.

[cmayer31 3]

Thanks for the tips and understanding guys. I'm kicking myself for not making one of the rides today, but my roommate picked up a plated WR400 that doesn't have current plate nor green sticker, so we're stuck riding a friend's private property in Corona for now.

Thanks for the info about Dirt Safety. I'll keep an eye out for their next class and give it a go. I have big plans for the bike and dual sporting, I just have most of the gear, the bike is set, so no I need to get myself to that level too.

Chris, you describes the majority of my issue spot on and I'm going to work the most on just relaxing. The big thing that you said is locking up the upper body and pushing through the turn and it's so true.

I really want to just ride everyday after work and get comfortable, but I either have to get into Ramona or Valley Center and the road time eats up most of my daylight. Anyone know of a truck trail, or other dirt road in the Escondido area? I'm not looking for scenic or technical, just dirt with turns.

Thanks again guys, really appreciate the help.

[hoss314 0]

Here is what works for me.....

I ride both street bikes and off road bikes and found that weight transfer works for me. (I have plenty of it) When watching the track races with the guys on the street bikes they shift their butt on the seat to the side they are turning. They also throw out a knee. The knee is used as a gauge. That way they know how much farther they can go before wipeout and if they didn't shift their butt enough it is more weight.

Off road riders throw out a leg on a turn. If you think about it, that can also be used as a gauge. Works better holding it in front of you even with the front tire.

So bottom line I came up with was butt for street and leg for off road. Shifting the weight makes turning much easier for me.

[forrest1 0]

Maybe it's easier if you start on dirt, without street bike experience? I don't claim to be an authority, but here is what has helped me.

For general riding/steering, I agree with Crawdaddy: steer with your feet. Just lean the bike side to side with your feet and legs, knees gripping the tank more or less. The handlebars are just for keeping your balance, not really for steering, and they somehow naturally follow the turn. Ride corners standing until you get the hang, then you can do it sitting in less-gnarly terrain. Do you do any downhill skiing? That's the closest thing to dirtbiking, IMHO, as far as steering with the feet.

I might countersteer some, but I don't think so, or at least I'm not aware of it consciously.

As far as washing out the front end:

Check your tire pressure first. My XR's wash out easily when the PSI gets up to 15-17, but work great at 13-14 PSI. Doesn't seem like it would be that critical, but it makes a big difference, so it's the first thing I check when it warms up or going to altitude. That's with Metzeler Unicross tires, optimum pressure might vary by tire.

Next, keep your weight forward, as much over the front wheel as you can, and let the bike wag it's tail a bit. Stand forward, or if sitting, get your crotch right up against the tank and lean forward. Too little weight forward, and you wash out for sure. Seems counterintuitive, and it almost feels safer to sit back when you're "anticipating" a washout, but it's the wrong thing to do.

Some incorrect shock settings can make the front wash out more easily, too. I would guess that your XR is set up pretty well out of the box, and I can't remeber exactly how compression/rebound adjustments affect it, but you could probably google it.

HTH,

Forrest

[socalhodaka 104]

I found that when I had my DRZ the front end was all over. It took a lot more body English in turns and sand as well as tight stuff. So stay loose. I also experienced some big changes with proper sag adjustment, I was really amazed at how much 1 inch made a difference in steering. Look ahead also and be loose. And Ride as much as you can.

[dirt dame 561]

Another tip is to make sure that your bars are low enough that your wrists are lower than your elbows when you are sitting down. If your bars are too high (or too far forward) it makes it a lot harder to get your weight over the bars to initiate the turn.

[bikeslut 1]

I'm no expert, but in my experience riding a bigger bike requires a slightly different style...

steering with the rear is a good way to put it... you can't stuff the front tire into a turn, and expect the bike to turn... it won't.

So, how I do it (without discussing that I don't do it very well), look where you want to go, and use engine braking and rear brake to control the back tire in to a turn, and thottle to control on the way out. On a heavy torque bike like the 650R, that is a challenge... ease in to it.

There are probably 20+ guys on this site that are faster/better than me, but I can generally keep up with a group by picking good lines... every rut/rock/berm, etc. is either an obstacle or an advantage to going faster. Keep your head up, and pick your line, and steer with your rear (that's tire and body engrish)

Get in on some group rides... many of us will volunteer to ride sweep, and shout (or radio) suggestions...

[Tree 0]

Slut has some good advice. With four strokes there is the engine braking factor you need to approach the turn at a moderate speed if you chop the throttle as you start the turn all the weight of the bike will push the front tire and want to wash out. you need to keep the throttle at a even speed entering the turn then roll on the throttle about half way through the turn. keep your weight on the outside peg and your inside leg should be out front in case you start to slide and have to dab your foot to keep you up.

[Jaynen 0]

Just like you my biggest fear in the dirt is losing the front, and honestly I still don't trust it enough. Most my wipeouts while learning have been losing the front. But on the big X-plane ride we had enough miles of relatively non technical stuff I got to play around with sitting/standing/forward/backward and I was amazed by how much more standing up, legs lightly bent body forward so my arms can be in an attack position with elbows out and trying to get my head almost over the tank/crossbar if you will helped. It was so much more stable and reassuring because the bike would just hold its line but at lower speeds I feel less comfortable in this position or I get worn out and when I sit it still sort of freaks me out.

Everytime I try to put my leg out and forward it always feels like I get a charley horse in my inner thigh of the leg I do it on and its excruciating for a little bit after.

I felt more over the front of the bike balance wise and the bike definitely shimmy'd less but also if the rear end walked a little bit because I goosed it or whatever it was I dont know it felt like when I was sitting down that the bike was back of the bike was driving the front of the bike and if you turned the handlebars it would sort of bulldoze it and expect the front to bite in and do its thing, when I got into the right position it felt like the front of the bike was leading the rear and so the back was just going to happily trail along?

PS. if your first dirt bike is an XR650R that a manly bike I have a little blue pig of a 250 (which I love dearly) and its still a handful

[Beezzz 6]

Craig,

I could never ride your 650R as my first dirt bike. It is so much bike in so many ways. Massive power. Massive weight for dirt AND jacked up for a Baja race pace. Without decades of practice on a little light bike, no one could ride your BRP beast. A wonderful beast, but a beast. Just relax and put on the miles safely.

Air pressure:

Air pressure is very important on a dirt bike. I run my tires on the low side, it improves traction unbelievably. I run the tires with just enough as to not dent the rims. That is how I could tell your tires were leaking air. When I hit the boulders with pace, I felt the hit on the rims which meant that the air is too low. With full air pressure in the front, I tend to wash out the front.

Turning:

Turn your 650R coming out of a turn with your throttle. Keep in mind your bike is very well balanced and has tons of potential. It's an advance heavy dirt bike. Put on the miles. Just focus on keeping it safe. Ride as much hard pack as you can. Hard pack will help your basics. Sand loves to wash out. Do you remember my sand wash out face plant off that boulder wall in Anza? All was fine up until that sand transition at the bottom. Sand is slippy. Beware the sand.

Excuse:

You could have the best excuse to buy a second dirt bike. A dirt bike - practice bike. The pros have practice bikes, right? Why not you?

See you soon out on the trail,

Beezzz

[Bagstr 288]

cmayer,

Like you, I battle the big bike. Here is my take.

Street riding is not dirt riding. Leaning to the inside on the street is not the plan on the dirt.

Visualize the contact patch of the the two wheels and stay centered over it. To be successful, you must get comfortable with both wheels sliding.

Last week in Big Bear, I was working on rear wheel turns, and that seems to help considerably. It is not about going slow (as evidenced by your friends railing turns) it is about front and back inertia. Power through the turns, centered on the contact patch. If you are balanced over the contact patches, you will slide through. Back to rear wheel turns; slide that baby to the outside to set up the angle to power through. Even is sand, if you are over the contact patch you won't fall over (much). Only use the front brake when braking a in straight line.

And these guys talking about skiing and driving with the feet, believe that.

Lastly, never ride a bike too big to pick up. I am barely in that category and it is hard work. I am always picking up that sucker! If you are afraid of falling because you are worried about being able to pick it up, you are not having fun.

The most important thing is to keep at it

[KLXBEN 0]

My KLX650 is a heavy pig. Airing down the front helps a lot. I found you just have to trust the power and suspension to (hopefully) put you into and out of the turn or over the obstacle. Steer more with your footpegs and use the rear wheel as a type of rudder. That technic works better standing. Bigger bikes do not react as fast as smaller bikes. On the DD I learned that when I would try to rush fast and hard into sharp turns I would only end up off the trail and into the bushes. I had to slow down and plan to set the bike in the turn. I steer the front where I think it should go and let the wheel pick the line then throttle through.Dont try to keep up with faster riders on lighter bikes.

[cmayer31 3]

Wow, I'm really thankful for all the advice everyone! There's clearly a lot I need to work on, but nothing that's out of reach and it'll all come with time and riding.

...

Lastly, never ride a bike too big to pick up. I am barely in that category and it is hard work. I am always picking up that sucker! If you are afraid of falling because you are worried about being able to pick it up, you are not having fun.

The most important thing is to keep at it

I'm not worried about the weight of the bike, I've dropped it plenty of times so far and for the most part people don't even realize that I was down. I used to move a lot of dead weight daily, so the getting the bike back up isn't an issue.

It's just learning to manage the bike properly.

[SDlineman 0]

I'm still learning myself, but the one piece of advice I haven't seen yet is to make sure you ride within your limits, even if it's slower than everyone else. I know for me if I try and push myself I tense up and don't ride as well, and I don't enjoy myself either. Once you get more comfortable riding your bike, the speed comes along quickly.

[2Wheels 0]

I used to have a problem with washing out the front wheel too until I read somewhere that as long as the rear wheel is sliding, the front won't wash out. Well, I started twisting the throttle a lot in turns while moving my weight forward of center and guess what? I haven't had a front-wheel washout since.

When the rear slides, it tightens up your turn. If your rear is sliding and you want to turn tighter, give it more gas. Chopping the throttle tends to turn the ground into a magnet... at least for me it does. Be careful about letting up on the throttle.

[Jaynen 0]

but be careful to not let that throttle twisting make you get too hot in the corner or entering the next corner in a sequence of corners. Riding in your limits is very important, I feel guilty almost everytime I ride because I keep the sweeps bored and busy usually but they at least pretend they dont mind when I grovel and thank them for being so patient

[Zenosan 2]

but be careful to not let that throttle twisting make you get too hot in the corner or entering the next corner in a sequence of corners. Riding in your limits is very important, I feel guilty almost everytime I ride because I keep the sweeps bored and busy usually but they at least pretend they dont mind when I grovel and thank them for being so patient

Craig

Lots of really good advice in this thread Craig. Personally I vote for getting yourself a smaller dirt bike specfically for the purpose. Even though you are a bigger guy than me you just don't need big overpowered bikes for the dirt. My Huskys weigh around 230lbs and the XLs around 250. Also you just don't need overkill on the power either. That is a macho game, Malcolm Smith usually raced a Husky 250 because that was all the power he needed. The 390s are more power than any rider can use. My feeling is the same for the Honda XL600. If I weighed 100 lbs more than I do I would need the power. I have a 600 but use the 250 when I will be doing serious dirt riding like the XPlane ride we did in Jan. After riding all day my 250 didn't wear me out and I only fell while at a standstill on a steep slope looking backwards. Not the bike's fault just a dumb move on my part.

Don