Zubb 1061 Posted November 16, 2022 (edited) For communications sake, I'd like to suggest a simple (sic) and reasonably SDAR scale that we can use to better describe group rides and skill levels. This can be tricky to accomplish without spinning out of control into a spreadsheet of cross references. It would be great to just use @paulmbowers (?) scale of .... what was it? Drive - Ride - Fall? Or just Level 1, 2 and 3. But alas, there are too many unanswered questions in between the answers for a group this varied. With a goal of keeping things simpler... and eschewing anything complex, I'd like to suggest the following scale. I "think" it's self explanatory. The following is more complex than I like, but I think it would cover the different skill levels, and importantly, the bike catagories. As we all know, a level 3 ride on a loaded ADV bike can often be a Level 1 or 2 on a dirt bike. With the following scale, an example of an ADV bike/Level Noob or Level 1 would be Otay Truck Trail and Boulder Creek. An example of Dirt bike/Level 2 might be Baileys cabin or Heat attack hill. At risk of opening a can of worms I suggest the following . . . ADV bike Level Noob, 1, 2 and 3 Dual Sport Level Noob, 1, 2 and 3 Dirt bike Level Noob, 1 2 and 3 Noob = brand new to riding moto 1= comfortable with road riding, have a very basic understanding of trail riding techniques 2= confident in gravel, sand, embedded rock, water and hills. Proficient at peg (enduro) steering and tipping the bike under you. 3= oh sh*t! Can I just have Chris Birch ride my bike out for me? Having some mastery of the clutch, brakes, throttle to find and keep traction in unusually challenging conditions. Please comment on wether you think this will help members in planning rides or deciding on what rides to attend. Any and all suggestions are welcome. If you think this is completely unnecessary, then please state so as all input is welcome. Edited November 17, 2022 by Zubb Deleted dirt bike level Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wintyfresh 46 Posted November 16, 2022 I agree ADV and Dirt Bike levels are going to diverge quite a bit, but dual sport adds confusion imho. Are we talking 500EXC? CRF450L? DRZ400? F650GS? KLR650? Wee-Strom? I feel like there's some fairly significant differences in those options, particularly when it comes to our local deserts. Just my $0.02. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSM8 360 Posted November 16, 2022 two categories ADV BIKE Dual Sport (dirt bike lumps into Dual Sport) This way anything that is low scale on Dual Sport would be easier on dirt bike Since most people are within these two groups it simplifies the message. Specific rides for small bikes can just add more detail like this ride is REALLY oriented to small bike due to deep sand and rock ledges so anything over a 650 would be really hard. Something like that? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zubb 1061 Posted November 16, 2022 (edited) Winty - great point. And I know... it's hard to know what folks "see" their bike as and what it's good for / not good for. Edited November 16, 2022 by Zubb Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zubb 1061 Posted November 16, 2022 Good point Dave. And again, there is a WIDE span of what folks think each bike category can do. I like the idea of whittling it to 2 categories. Adventure bikes - 1290's down to 650's mainly Dual Sport - 800's down to 350ish. The point is not to have a precise definition because that's impossible. But to have a general understanding of bike / rider category. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robertaccio 406 Posted November 16, 2022 I feel this is a good system, and as folks get out and ride under these skill designators the SDAR group will get the rating levels dialed in even more as rider testing, rating and inputs come in following group rides. Understand I try my best to gauge groups as we ride, so as to not get folks into trouble or ruin their fun, or worse hurt. You more active club members have a good feel for your bike groups levels due to more participation in group riding. My tuppence. Types as listed above make a big difference for what where and how a ride will go. I have my extended crew of ADV guys that ride 1090s, T7s etc. for them a standard (enduro race bike trail on big bikes) is a normal level 1 day. For most it would be level 3, so there is the subjectivity aspect of the skill set numbering system. But overall, this club is well balanced for assessing levels. My threepence. Enjoy the ride. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
J5ive 92 Posted November 17, 2022 Point of View from a NEW rider in the ADV world...I like the idea of some sort of scale of difficulty. When I see a ride posted, I'm looking/hoping someone puts in Noob or Beginner friendly, then I know it's something that I might be interested in. The Rating system is not going to be perfect (especially at first). But as @robertaccio stated, as a consistent rating system moves down the line - it'll get more refined and accurate due to input from the people on the ride. I agree with @DSM8 on it starting out with 2 categories - if down the road it needs to be redefined, then so be it.ADV BIKE and Dual Sport (dirt bike lumps into Dual Sport) This way anything that is low scale on Dual Sport would be easier on dirt bike I like the way @Zubb breaks it down, this 1, 2 and 3 rating, would work for each category. For me, being a Noob, I know I'm good with ADV #1, on rating #2 I would ask questions to see if I could make it or not, and with a #3 rating - I'm waiting for the Ride Report to come out (hopefully with photo's or video) Noob = brand new to riding moto 1= comfortable with road riding, have a very basic understanding of trail riding techniques 2= confident in gravel, sand, embedded rock, water and hills. Proficient at peg (enduro) steering and tipping the bike under you. 3= oh sh*t! Can I just have Chris Birch ride my bike out for me? Having some mastery of the clutch, brakes, throttle to find and keep traction in unusually challenging conditions. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zubb 1061 Posted November 17, 2022 I updated first post to delete dirt bike level. In my postings, I'll start using this scale to describe rides, until someone proposes something better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
padu 322 Posted November 17, 2022 I love this and it kind of jives with @shutterrev system on his San Diego ADV Routes page (green, orange, red). To complement the discussion, I've been collecting routes and I've been thinking about "gamifying" this a little. Like a catalog of all San Diego trails, and if you conquer one of those, after you make a post here, you get a "badge", something like this: Independently, I've been cataloging all my GPX routes in Gaia. When I go through a certain known trail, I do some pruning and add to a "library" folder. It looks like this today: Ideas brewing... 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zubb 1061 Posted November 18, 2022 Your organizational skills are making me dizzy. - that’s a compliment. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSM8 360 Posted November 18, 2022 2 hours ago, Zubb said: Your organizational skills are making me dizzy. - that’s a compliment. Please I watch you get dizzy reading the Sunday comic’s Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSM8 360 Posted November 18, 2022 I think the 2 bike color rating idea works green yellow black This rating system might simplify it and most people know it from hiking trails and skiing and black could be 1-3 Diamond difficulty Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pokey151 244 Posted November 18, 2022 I think there should be a 1-5 scale for adv bikes 1=easy like Sutherland Dam Rd, Boulder creek rd, Orosco TT 2=Black mtn TT, Lost Valley/Cooper Cienega TT, Bee Canyon, Otay TT 3=Grapevine Canyon rd 4=Pinyon/Fish Creek, Northern Ocotillo 5=Phone booth etc Northern Ocotillo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zubb 1061 Posted November 18, 2022 Looks like we are turning toward a trail rating system rather than a ride rating system. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted November 18, 2022 What about Current Conditions & by the minute Dualsport Crash Threat Alerts? If it rains goes it go from Red to Orange? If there are ruts will it go Green to Red? Are “ADV” bikes a category? I thought that was Starbucks marketing. Hope you got your holiday red cup yesterday, don’t mind the 30 minute line! Don’t forget ‘Zubb Death’ sections! Typically marked as on the map. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zubb 1061 Posted November 18, 2022 (edited) Can you see how quickly you knuckleheads took this to the next level?????? But I'm going to keep Zubb Death in my lexicon. I like it. A certain section of Imogene Pass comes to mind. As for ADV bike category, I think most folk would consider an 890, 900, 901, SuperT, AT, DesertX, 1200/1250, 1090, 1190, 1290 and (dare I say it) the Pan American to fill that category. As for Adventure bikes by definition . . . . well that includes everything with 2 wheels and an engine. Just ask @tntmo. Edited November 18, 2022 by Zubb 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zubb 1061 Posted November 18, 2022 ^^^ edit. Not 'fill' the category but rather define it in general. Mid size bikes could fall either way into ADV or into DS depending on the rider. The Himalayan would certainly be more of an adventure bike then a DS in my opinion. If Buell ever get's it's 180hp Rally bike to production, I would rate that more dual sport than ADV bike, kind of like a 950SE perhaps? I'm getting dizzy again, lol. That's why I prefer a Ride Rating system. There are folks on 250's going on ADV rides with groups and riders on 1250 and 1290's doing DS rides and single track. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tntmo 887 Posted November 18, 2022 You clowns are making it more difficult than it needs to be. Obviously a pro rider may think any trail is easy and a new rider may be overwhelmed when their front tire touches gravel. Common sense is lost…LMAO! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted November 18, 2022 57 minutes ago, Zubb said: As for ADV bike category, I think most folk would consider an 890, 900, 901, SuperT, AT, DesertX, 1200/1250, 1090, 1190, 1290 and (dare I say it) the Pan American to fill that category. As for Adventure bikes by definition . . . . well that includes everything with 2 wheels and an engine. Just ask @tntmo. @Zubb I personally refuse be to DEFINED by your CATEGORY !!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSM8 360 Posted November 19, 2022 9 hours ago, Goofy Footer said: @Zubb I personally refuse be to DEFINED by your CATEGORY !!! Your just a pain in the ass thats all 😂😉 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
padu 322 Posted November 19, 2022 23 hours ago, Zubb said: Can you see how quickly you knuckleheads took this to the next level?????? But I'm going to keep Zubb Death in my lexicon. I like it. A certain section of Imogene Pass comes to mind. As for ADV bike category, I think most folk would consider an 890, 900, 901, SuperT, AT, DesertX, 1200/1250, 1090, 1190, 1290 and (dare I say it) the Pan American to fill that category. As for Adventure bikes by definition . . . . well that includes everything with 2 wheels and an engine. Just ask @tntmo. There was an entire podcast by Highside Lowside (S6 E5: What Makes a Dual-Sport and Why It Matters) and I like their definition: Dual sport: a dirt bike that was given plates to run on streets legaly. Adventure: A street bike that was given some components to be dirt capable. Of course, there are plenty of examples and exceptions in between that could go either way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites