amgems 79 Posted December 18, 2022 I hope this helps and doesn't confuse the subject. Some of the guys I've ridden with here in AZ are just using the Rugged Radios that com pre-programmed with channels and frequencies that they (Rugged) say are legal. So, I've programmed my radio to have those available. For the most part the pre-programmed Rugged Channels work just fine. And, to use them there is no programming needed. And supposedly no license either. It's all there ready to use. EZ Peezy. If you are in a very busy area like Ocotillo Wells or Glamis there may be a lot of other folks using the pre-programmed channels, and it may get a little busy on a big weekend. Here are the Rugged Radio pre-programmed channels/frequencies: PCI has their own set of channels too. Of course, they don't match the Rugged chans. Let me know if you are interested in seeing those. Most of the guys here use Checkers1 - 151.925Mhz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulmbowers 236 Posted December 18, 2022 14 minutes ago, amgems said: Rugged Radios that come pre-programmed with channels and frequencies that they (Rugged) say are legal. Which they are not. Here's (attached) the boring legal action brought by the FCC, and the basis on RR's switch to other radios on different frequencies. DA-20-1395A1_Rcd.pdf Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanT 29 Posted December 18, 2022 Thanks @paulmbowers That is definitely a licensed frequency, which is a blocker for some, as well as the higher cost of radios. Is there any reason that the more obtainable GMRS isn’t considered as an option? There are some good, inexpensive radios with 5 mile range and the ability to use repeaters. Please note: This is just a question out of curiosity and definitely not a criticism as I am really not very knowledgeable in this area. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amgems 79 Posted December 18, 2022 36 minutes ago, paulmbowers said: Which they are not. Here's (attached) the boring legal action brought by the FCC, and the basis on RR's switch to other radios on different frequencies. DA-20-1395A1_Rcd.pdf My list was from 2018. Guys are still using them. No arrests so far. 🤞 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amgems 79 Posted December 18, 2022 1 minute ago, IanT said: Thanks @paulmbowers That is definitely a licensed frequency, which is a blocker for some, as well as the higher cost of radios. Is there any reason that the more obtainable GMRS isn’t considered as an option? There are some good, inexpensive radios with 5 mile range and the ability to use repeaters. Please note: This is just a question out of curiosity and definitely not a criticism as I am really not very knowledgeable in this area. GMRS is UHF maybe the range isn't as good as VHF? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulmbowers 236 Posted December 18, 2022 3 minutes ago, IanT said: Thanks @paulmbowers That is definitely a licensed frequency, which is a blocker for some, as well as the higher cost of radios. Is there any reason that the more obtainable GMRS isn’t considered as an option? There are some good, inexpensive radios with 5 mile range and the ability to use repeaters. Please note: This is just a question out of curiosity and definitely not a criticism as I am really not very knowledgeable in this area. The in-use difference between VHF and GMRS is negligible. And VHF/UHF as well- and our personal tests have little practical difference between VHF analog and digital. One ALSO needs a license for GMRS. Truth is, there has been close to ZERO enforcement and penalties acssesed by the FCC ever. I think there was one WAY egregious case on the books of someone with a base unit WAY overpowered and they practically begged him to desist. In the current use environment, (low power, remote, simplex) nobody is hurting anybody. I just bring it up so everyone is well-informed, and people are respectful of other users of the frequencies. I've only heard other users once or twice, and they're usually on adjacent frequencies bleeding over. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.JAJA 405 Posted December 18, 2022 Sorry I am off the "frequenc" for 4 days. ICU UCSD. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hawkins 237 Posted December 19, 2022 Is anyone in this thread a licensed ham radio user other than me? (wall of text below, if you want to skip to what I consider the interesting bit, scroll to jump in here) I have my technician license, the lowest level, and I am studying for my general license, which is the mid-level of the three. The highest level is called amateur extra and is pretty geeky, and I'll work on it after I get my general ticket! Getting my technician license took about 1 month of studying in between work and life, and really wasn't that hard. I used an audiobook and did chapter and section-based quizzes for free online. The certification is a 35-question test, from which you need 27 correct answers to pass (might be off +/- 1, doing this from memory). I am not the sharpest marble in the bag and I only missed 1 question so I can say with confidence that anyone can do this, and it is worth doing because the science is really quite cool. Also, the math is very, very minimal and basic, nothing other than simple addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division - and you can use a calculator on the test if you are scared of math. I'm happy to help anyone study. As for operating without a license: you must have a ham radio license to transmit using a ham radio operating within ham frequencies - unless there is an emergency. Will the FCC jump out from behind the next turn and fine you or arrest you? Almost certainly not. They have the legal right to suspend your license temporarily, fine you (and the fines can be massive), and even bar you from having a license - for life. Full disclosure, I spent lots of time operating in frequencies outside of my license, which is against the rules, but I figured nobody would care. I was incorrect. The ARRL is an organization dedicated to amateur radio (I am a member) and a member who volunteers their time making sure people follow the rules in my city saw what I was doing and sent me a letter warning me that continuing to do so would likely get me reported to the FCC. You need to understand that a very large percentage of the ham radio operators out there have both money and time to spare. Often your most experienced users are ex-military retirees. They like rules, they like order, and they are wicked smart. Every heard of a fox hunt? The various radio clubs around the country put them on and invite licensed operators to participate for cash, prizes, and most importantly, bragging rights. The goal is to use self-made antennas to track down where a single, specific signal transmission is coming from in the form of a hidden/disguised transmitter. The entire point of this exercise is so that users hone the skills needed to track down rogue users who are not licensed. And why would they do that? Hell someone of them just like doing it. Ever met a HOA member and thought, "why would someone want to just... be a jerk?". It's like that, but radio waves cover the planet, not your little cul-de-sac. My overarching point here is that the right thing to do is to operate within the law. Amateur radio is a really cool hobby, the people that work to be part of it (like myself) enjoy knowing more about the way radio works, and most importantly the self-governing of the ham community is one of the justifications used to get the government to keep our amateur radio space free of commercial users. If you want to better understand how much desire there is to take away our amateur space, realize that T-Mobile paid 3.5 Billion for more spectrum in the 600 MHz band. How many companies and government agencies use radio? A LOT - have a look. Try to squint and find the space reserved for amateur use. And that was from 2016! Having my technician license means I am allowed to transmit on UHV (ultra high frequency) and VHF (very high frequency) ham frequencies at up to 1,500 watts, as well as a very small slice of the HF (you guessed it, high frequency) frequencies at up to 200 watts. Here are the names of the various bands, if anyone is interested. The way around this is to use CB (citizen band, which operates at approx 27 MHz in the HF range) or FRS (family radio service, uses 22 "channels" in the 462 MHz and 467 MHz range, all of which are shared with GMRS) radio which doesn't require any license or training or use something like GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service, which operates at approx 465 MHz aka UHF) which has a license fee good for (I think) $10 years but doesn't require training. (jump in here) The crux of the issue is that without a ham license and ham hardware, you are going to be very limited on power (watts) and even with high power, UHF/VHF are largely line-of-sight. So much so that repeaters are located on top of mountains in and around the San Diego area so that UHF/VHF users can talk to each other. In the picture above, the two cars very likely cannot talk to each other directly via UHF/VHF because, well, there is a mountain in the way. The tower at the top is the repeater and ham radio users love hanging out on them to find someone to talk to. It's like a party chat phone line, for those that are old enough to remember them. Free too, for licensed ham users. Many repeaters are linked, meaning you can talk to one receiver and have your signal (greatly!) amplified and broadcast one mountain over - or on the other side of the world thanks to internet-linked repeaters. Come back to UHF/VHF, they are really just line of sight. For a 6' (~183 centimeter) tall person, the horizon is a little more than 3 miles (5 kilometers) away. Two 6' tall people holding radios at head level, with their antenna oriented in the same plane (yes, radio signals are polarized), with perfect atmospheric conditions, and zero obstructions between them, could theoretically talk to each other. Putting that antenna inside a helmet, or tucking it somewhere on a metal motorcycle, then adding electrical noise from the bike's power system, vibrating it all to hell, and then adding tons of BRAAAAP in the background, and well, it likely won't go 6 miles. And if it did you likely couldn't hear it well without paying for good gear, which often means sound-isolating headphones, which are a hazard on the trail. I could spend pages/days talking about how HF frequencies can travel beyond the line of sight. The extremely short version is that they bound off layers of the atmosphere and come back down to the surface. This single sentence requires something like 11 astricts because those layers change, different frequencies bounce differently, sometimes thermal ducting comes into play, launch angle matters, the weather on the sun is what dictates the "bounciness" and that changes by the minute, and so. much. more. It really is a cool hobby. When I click the button and transmit on my radio here at my desk, the signal travels fast enough to circle the globe 7.5 times - in a second. And thanks to my understanding of some of the astricts I mentioned, I have verified 2-way contact with every state including Alaska and Hawaii, well over 200 counties in the US, and every continent except South America - though I did get contact there once, however that person didn't officially log it. Jerk. And all that using 100 watts and an antenna bade of wire suspended from my 2nd-floor balcony to my pool railing. So what's the answer? There is no perfect solution. It is my understanding that the greatest power (watts), range (HF > UHF/VHF), skillset (moon bounce, talk through satellites, measure solar weather's impact on the ionosphere, help during a real emergency, etc.), and just cool factor is ham radio. So that's my pitch. Get licensed. It is a cool hobby. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Covered in Dust 165 Posted December 19, 2022 (edited) KJ6NUH expired and didn’t bother renewing it because I only use it on the bike. Edited December 19, 2022 by Covered in Dust Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hawkins 237 Posted December 19, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Covered in Dust said: KJ6NUH KN6VQL I'm interested in your take on my message above. Even if you disagree, it would be good to hear from another licensed ham. Edited December 19, 2022 by Hawkins Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkug 150 Posted December 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Mr.JAJA said: Sorry I am off the "frequenc" for 4 days. ICU UCSD. Hang in their Udo ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulmbowers 236 Posted December 19, 2022 (edited) WB6QWD I understand and appreciate your point of view, and you are of course factually correct. And. While I may be violating the letter of the law IF I chose to operate without proper protocol, the truth is I'm harming nobody and interfering with nobody. There is no victim to my crime. Tree falling in the forest, etc. 146.505 is in a rarely used portion of the band, and riding in remote areas in simplex mode is practically invisible for most. There's no fox to hunt here. YES- were I to use a repeater, I'd handle the situation very differently- my actions have consequences for others, and I'd be using someone else's equipment fr my amusement- I'm not that guy. Again, your point is valid and should be thoughtfully considered. Edited December 19, 2022 by paulmbowers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
97xr400r 122 Posted December 19, 2022 (edited) These guys fighting the good fight 👌lookin out for each other and the noobs. Good on y'all Edited December 19, 2022 by 97xr400r Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amgems 79 Posted December 19, 2022 I think a lot of the technical parts of this discussion will scare people away from going with bike to bike radios. If you and your buddy want to communicate while riding, just go get a couple of the Rugged Radio or PCI setups, use the channels they pre-programmed, and go ride. It's fun. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanT 29 Posted December 20, 2022 12 hours ago, amgems said: I think a lot of the technical parts of this discussion will scare people away from going with bike to bike radios. If you and your buddy want to communicate while riding, just go get a couple of the Rugged Radio or PCI setups, use the channels they pre-programmed, and go ride. It's fun. That’s pretty much where I ended up. I paid for the license, for 10 years, and bought a slightly better GMRs radio than the shrink-wrap ones but can talk to anyone who has those. Will I use it much outside of campsites? Probably not, but as @Hawkins and @paulmbowers say, if you ain’t hurting anyone and having fun, then do whatever works for you and your buddies. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BSon2or4 28 Posted January 3, 2023 My handle is in my signature and of course, I'm licensed for ham. In fact, my technician class license is up for renewal in 2024. Having the simplest of ham licenses is not difficult and starting there gives you permission to operate in the allowed bands previously listed by Hawkins. Taking the time out to use some of the online study resources and study guides can give you enough radio basics knowledge to be able to pass the technician extra exam. For getting to an exam all you have to do is check with ARRL for one of the test days in your area usually hosted by a local radio group. From that point it may only be a license to operate, but you may find yourself fascinated enough to start tweaking your rig for better signal performance, liking it enough to test for a higher license class and advancing into other sections of amateur radio. Again, like was said previously, do what works for you and have fun. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites