How About This for Border Crossings ?

[KTMrad 513]

Check out these videos.....to raise public awareness of our Border Issues.........

LINK HERE

[Spaugh 1]

we went 4x4 with briana's dad last christmas south of Tucson where he lives. They have signs posted all over the place warning people about all the illegal activity going on in the area. So we keep going further down into it and we found this pond and a big giant pit where all the boarder jumpers tossed their bags once they got across. It was crazy, the pit was the size of my backyard, there were 1000's of backpacks in this giant pit. Then some americans came on quads and told us that we were at the pick up point. Didn't see a single BP agent all day out there. A lot of people in CA made a big fuss about the AZ immigration law but I'm not sure they realize how many people are coming across there. AZ has the most illegal crossings of any state.

[dsfox 0]

kind of sad...lately it sometimes seems our government is more bent on keeping US out of our OWN public lands....than keeping illegals from entering & dwelling here, etc....

If regulations made it less convenient, more uncomfortable, hard to make it, less forgiven, with NO benefits when you're illegal, etc etc....perhaps it wouldn't be as big a problem...

[tsr 0]

Form before function; keeping up appearances ... get re-elected ...

[paulmbowers 236]

I generally try to stay out of these frays, but:

I think borders are arbitrary and silly, and define anachronism.

The begininning with the telegram technology has erased borders since the industrial age. Phones, faxes and internet has leveled the business playing field. Our clothes are made abroad, our cars or components thereof, certainly our motorcycles are all manufactured for us overseas, and our money goes back to those manufacturers.

These "borderless" tranactions are the future, folks, and the level of international business and education is just beginning a snowball's roll and picking up speed. As a nation, we're constantly revising our laws to allow greater flexibility in business transactions. The European nations are using a single currency! The implications of that alone should be an indicator of the direction the political and more importantly the financial world is going.

Consumer demand for imported goods, labor and services in insatiable. It's not going to stop,and all the silly protectionist laws will go nowhere.

What will happen? Look to Europe. Traveling Europe is no longer experiencing the patchwork or countries it used to be. Of course there are culteral differences, and certainly differences in cuisine and social habits. But the contrasts between countries are beginning to blur on every level. I believe the cultural differences between Southern France and Northern Italy are fewer than between New York and Mobile, Alabama.

This border stuff is a lot of nonsense and senseless killing for an idea that won't survive the next century, and maybe as little as 50 years. The border between the US and Mexico will eventually fall like the Berlin Wall. There is too much to gain on both sides of that border- inexpensive labor immediately adjacent with tremendous wealth.

Don't think so? Look at the number of the hispanic population of San Diego, Orange County and Los Angeles, as well as Arizona and Texas. Many border towns are nearly indistinguishable in nationality.

It's happening, folks.

[KTMrad 513]

I think borders are arbitrary and silly, and define anachronism.

I'll have to disagree......there's a lot of corruption, drug smuggling, now another Border Patrol agent killed in Arizona......there's a lot of nasty stuff happening at the border of Mexico. I don't see any positive gain from that.

We don't have those type of problems at the Canadian Border....or not as common, or maybe we just don't know about them

[dirt dame 561]

We don't have those type of problems at the Canadian Border....or not as common, or maybe we just don't know about them

Probably because Canadians have a standard of life that they like pretty well already.

Imagine the problems we'd have if we were bordered by 3rd world countries on all sides....oh wait, if that were so, we'd probably already be a 3rd world country ourselves.

[ADV Bum 205]

Paul, I can see what you are saying about trade/ commerce but borders over there are still defined. Governments still control their respective countries. Overseas your are a foreigner and not given any privileges just because you have stepped foot on their soil. Stricter laws should be applied here so that we are on a even field of play.

[Spaugh 1]

I generally try to stay out of these frays, but:

I think borders are arbitrary and silly, and define anachronism.

The begininning with the telegram technology has erased borders since the industrial age. Phones, faxes and internet has leveled the business playing field. Our clothes are made abroad, our cars or components thereof, certainly our motorcycles are all manufactured for us overseas, and our money goes back to those manufacturers.

These "borderless" tranactions are the future, folks, and the level of international business and education is just beginning a snowball's roll and picking up speed. As a nation, we're constantly revising our laws to allow greater flexibility in business transactions. The European nations are using a single currency! The implications of that alone should be an indicator of the direction the political and more importantly the financial world is going.

Consumer demand for imported goods, labor and services in insatiable. It's not going to stop,and all the silly protectionist laws will go nowhere.

What will happen? Look to Europe. Traveling Europe is no longer experiencing the patchwork or countries it used to be. Of course there are culteral differences, and certainly differences in cuisine and social habits. But the contrasts between countries are beginning to blur on every level. I believe the cultural differences between Southern France and Northern Italy are fewer than between New York and Mobile, Alabama.

This border stuff is a lot of nonsense and senseless killing for an idea that won't survive the next century, and maybe as little as 50 years. The border between the US and Mexico will eventually fall like the Berlin Wall. There is too much to gain on both sides of that border- inexpensive labor immediately adjacent with tremendous wealth.

Don't think so? Look at the number of the hispanic population of San Diego, Orange County and Los Angeles, as well as Arizona and Texas. Many border towns are nearly indistinguishable in nationality.

It's happening, folks.

how do you feel about the death tax?

[paulmbowers 236]

xrBum:

There certainly are laws and governments. But consider the paths governments are taking to homogeneity- our citizens, right or wrong, are voting in great numbers to take us away from capitalism- best example is healthcare. Right or wrong, the majority of voters strongly support what is an essentially socialized form of health care. 45% of the California state budget is for education, another socialist program. (That second biggest item in the budget? Prison.)

Meanwhile, countries who've been socialist (or worse) for years and demanding more capitalist forms of government. Obviously, the Soviets went this direction as well as most of the eastern bloc.

I believe these government changes are gaining momentum because the world is now connected to the degree that we are interdependent. Greece's tiny economy collapses and the repercussions are global.

I take a long view of this- these trends and changes are geometrically accellerating, and the big whopper is China. US corporations are drooling at the number of customers China has, and China has a lust for the products of the rest of the world. (You know, the ones they make there). So the things that have historically been barriers to trade, government and economic are rapidly being erased.

Our border with Canada has little strife because the difference between our people and our governments is very small, eh? While Canada loves to persecute the Quebecois for their stuffy attitude (it's not just the French language- it's the culture), they are nearly indistinguishable from Americans if you remove the accents. And there are no accents on the internet, and frankly, nobody cares.

We no longer only socialize in our own ponds or neighborhoods, we socialize globally.

So- back to the topic. I believe these border killings and efforts are only a bloody and violent episode one the way to knocking down the wall forever. Sure- many find the idea distasteful, and I understand that. But for me, the trend is undeniable and approaching with the speed of, well, a pinned 990.

[Czechsix 1]

I think that there's an apples and oranges discussion going on here.

The actual border between the nations, NAFTA, integration of our different nations, etc...doesn't have much to do with the current narco war. Those guys are in it for short and long term gain, in an enterprise that is viewed as illegal and immoral, yet is heavily subsidized on lots of levels by the "official" government.

The narcos aren't interested in bringing a war to us - little profit in that, and mucho problema for them. They're interested in protecting their business, but things have gotten so anarchic in the plazas that no one is really sure what's going on. Just that there's lots of shooting. Take a look at Tamaulipas, that place has incredible death rates (latest reports detailed over two hundred sicarios dead in a single fight), and it's in a complete flux right now.

IF the reports from some segments were correct, then we'd be seeing wholesale incursions, columns, fighting positions, and dozens or hundreds of deaths per day in the border areas on the US side. Along with many more involved military and LEO forces on our side of the border...but we're not at that point, yet. Probably will never be, unless the narcos can pull off the same thing that they did down south, infiltrating and co-opting the government. But then again, that's Mexico, always has been. They've had a long time to practice that culture, and they've gotten pretty advanced at it.

I need more coffee.

[Strega 0]

As technology advances, so do the abilities of the cartels. They carry bigger and better guns with armor piercing bullets, use sat phones that work almost everywhere, run their own radio networks with encrypted transmissions, etc etc. They have the $$ to buy the best there is, and our guys are supplied with what the lowest bidder provided. Sux all the way around.

The US has a drug problem, the cartels capitalizing on it, and killing anyone who stands in their way.

[paulmbowers 236]

The actual border between the nations, NAFTA, integration of our different nations, etc...doesn't have much to do with the current narco war.

I agree, and it supports my premise (in my opinion).

The narcos would not exist without US customers. They have something to sell, we want to buy it. By we, I don't mean you and I- I mean a HUGE number of individuals in the US willing to risk incarceration to enjoy the use of drugs. That's a hell of a demand- not just the expense, but the risk. That will never stop either. Anyone watching Bordwalk Empire? It's fiction, but accurate to the attempt to prohibit the use of a specific drup- alcohol.

The ongoing commerce will exist regardless of any borders, border guards, border helicopters, National Guard, infra-red sensors, etc, etc. It simply won't stop.

And the same for "legitimate" business. The US will act in it's own interest, and if that means relaxing tariffs on imported goods, it will happen. We want our DVDs, iPods, GPSs and computers. When we increase trade, we decrease our autonomy, and that of our nation. We want cheap labor for our unskilled (and skilled!) services.

I'm not saying this is bad nor good. I'm just saying it (and nonspecifichigherpower I hate this cliché) IS what it IS.

So how does this relate to border issues?

If one accepts my position that in the future borders will become completely anachronistic, then we're having a lot of senseless violence and loss of life.

Should we just take down the fence and ignore it all? Probably not- but then it becomes a matter of where, when and how much.

[ShocknAwe 0]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=kfIVqP0MRjo

BS to white courtesy phone w/pic from the other fence crossed on this ride. hint: chainlink

Tecate to Santa Veronica:

[racerbill 0]

George and Dick got caught with their hands in the cookie jar over Iraq. So to divert public attention, during their re-election campaign, they raised the Mexican issues to national level and it found traction with the base. Alan Bersten was on TV yesterday and Napolitano the other day saying statistically(that's using facts to back up your opinions) the border issues are at their best in the last 15 years. Yet public perception is the border is out of control. There are other credible studies showing Illegals pay more tax than they receive in benefits. The issue of the wars and paying for them seems to be way down the list of concerns when it should be #1. It's hard to keep your eye on the ball.

PEACE, OUT.

[Vagabundo 0]

Wow, thanks for that essentially meaningless posting racerbill. Instead of citing any studies you simply spout the same tired dogma and point towards a ghost you call "other credible studies." Your statement that illegals are a boon to our economy and pay more in taxes than they use in services is based on nothing, and wrong. I will cite my study. It's a long read, no pictures, but give it a shot.

The High Cost of Cheap Labor, Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget

The demand for illegals does not require an investigative panel to determine the reason. American business owners want cheap labor at ANY cost, they are aided by the Republican party, the Democrats want voters (say hi to Jerry Brown), the Catholic Church wants parishioners, and the unions want members. Luckily for all of them there is a brain dead middle class to pay for it all.

[TrophyHunter 15]

Studies are always hard to point at as the reader never really knows where and how the data was collected. It is interesting that the footnotes in the chart ASSUME the "Legalized Illegal" households would pay taxes and demand services similar to that of current citizens....IF the head of household was from Mexico. Granted, that's the closest source but there are several other countries represented in the "illegal alien" pool.

That's a big assumption. They're not paying taxes now and to assume they'd suddenly get a conscience and reduce their income by giving it to the government just doesn't ring true for me. I wish I didn't have to pay taxes.

I know I have a myopic view due to my job but the day to day reality of the illegal labor force and the non-working illegals and their drain on society is understated in the study. No facts to back it up, but if you spent your day getting hit in the face with the consequences........

Violence: I'm not a fan of going into Mexico because of the violence, but LA Gangs are doing their share.

Immigration and the Alien Gang Epidemic: Problems and Solutions

Testimony of Heather Mac Donald, Senior Fellow, Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security, and Claims

--A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations. It commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

--Immigration and Customs Enforcement conservatively puts the number of illegals in Mara Salvatrucha as a “majority;” police officers, by contrast, assert that the gang is overwhelmingly illegal.

-- In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide in the first half of 2004 (which totaled 1,200 to 1,500) targeted illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) were for illegal aliens.

Being as I've investigated the "underground economy" for the past 4 years, I can say firsthand that the illegal workforce is mostly being paid in cash, not paying taxes, their employers aren't paying required business taxes for their employees and they are a drain on subsidized medical and welfare (fraudulently) systems in place.

[Covered in Dust 163]

Well maybe we should all adopt an xenophobic attitude. And I don't mean just Americans, people from all countries should just hate each other equally. Then we would all know where we stand. Just kidding, been all around the world and most people are very inviting of people from other countries. I know we have a bigger problem with people crossing our borders in search of jobs than any other country in the world. But as long as we have the jobs it will always be that way. I think we need to crack down on business that pay under the table and a lot of these problems will go away or at least some of the arguments.

Covered in ?

[eddie 0]

I used to love my city. No longer. The schools filled with kids that belong down south - that WE pay for with our taxes.. Neighborhoods I lived in as a kid unrecognizable and dangerous to a gringo. No, I don't much like my city anymore, and frankly, am waiting for the day when WE have had enough of the invasion.

Oh, and in case race is an issue... I welcome with OPEN ARMS, anyone that comes to our country legally. I could give a crap about race, creed, religion, lifestyle choice, whatever. Just come here legally.

[Vagabundo 0]

Well maybe we should all adopt an xenophobic attitude. And I don't mean just Americans, people from all countries should just hate each other equally. Then we would all know where we stand. Just kidding, been all around the world and most people are very inviting of people from other countries.

When did xenophobia enter this discussion? The answer, when you brought it here. Oh, but you were only joking. I thought you were trying to re-direct a discussion about economic consequences of illegal immigration to a unsubstantiated, emotional accusation that those who are concerned about their money and the economy and sovereignty of their country are simply racist, but then I realized that you were only joking.

I have also traveled extensively and you are correct, most are inviting of people from other countries, when they arrive legally. That scenario has a name, it's called tourism, and it generates seemingly endless supplies of cash which nearly everyone is "very inviting" of. When that (minor) clarification is made the Emperor seems to lose his clothes.

[jbw 0]

Wow, thanks for that essentially meaningless posting racerbill. Instead of citing any studies you simply spout the same tired dogma and point towards a ghost you call "other credible studies." Your statement that illegals are a boon to our economy and pay more in taxes than they use in services is based on nothing, and wrong. I will cite my study. It's a long read, no pictures, but give it a shot.

The High Cost of Cheap Labor, Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget

This organization you quote is certainly not all that credible either(and at the very least suspect)... they may have their statistics but really when it comes down to it they cannot be trusted. With a little research it can be found that the CIS organization seems to have a major conservative leaning even though they call themselves non-partisan.

Assumptions can be altered to make the data say almost anything that is desired. The assumptions in many cases probably cannot be verified.

In the case of an individual making judgment calls from personal experience one faces a serious issue of selection bias. For example for the case of a law enforcement officer the illegal immigrants that are seen have a definite selection bias: Law enforcement was called to investigate.

I do not believe these sources about CIS are necessarily robust either... but at least it sheds a light on the fact that the issue is much more complicated than most make it out to be.

http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/sheriff-cancels-meeting-think-tank-hate-group-ties

http://imagine2050.newcomm.org/2009/02/23/center-for-immigration-studies-plays-with-numbers-and-bigotry/

http://www.splcenter.org/publications/the-nativist-lobby-three-faces-of-intolerance/cis-the-independent-think-tank

http://ndn.org/taxonomy/term/434

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_Immigration_Studies

[TrophyHunter 15]

In the case of an individual making judgment calls from personal experience one faces a serious issue of selection bias. For example for the case of a law enforcement officer the illegal immigrants that are seen have a definite selection bias: Law enforcement was called to investigate.

For clarification, the team I was assigned to investigated the business, not the employees. The employees, illegal or not, were our witnesses and part of why we were there. Businesses not paying proper workers' compensation premiums had the workers going to clinics and getting marginal treatment or no treatment at all. Several examples of lifetime injuries that left employees unable to work and untreated were found. Also, some of the employees end up with no unemployment benefits since the employer deducted them from their pay but just put them in their own pocket. Those being paid cash or "checks without deductions" have no coverage for such things and go to medical facilities on the taxpayer dime.

JBW - I'm unclear as to what your statement actually means. Is it saying all officers are biased or the illegal immigrants feel picked on because LE was called.....or something else? I'm literally just not sure.

[jbw 0]

In a study the only way to ensure your statistics are valid is to use a random sample. By the mere fact that law enforcement was called makes the selection process non random and biases the survey.

this is in no way an attack an law enforcement officers. The term bias used in this context does not carry a negative connotation in the same way as the term "racial bias." It is simply a statistical term which describes a way that a study could be flawed.

Reference: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias?wasRedirected=true

The selection bias is still present in the case you have provided. As you see employees at businesses that are under suspicion of acting illegally.

[TrophyHunter 15]

Thx for the clarification. Been a while since I've done random sampling. The studies I was involved in included the workcenter studied, with a lot of input by them as to their tasking. Random time sampling per task occurred and all the data was evaluating using correlation and regression analysis. The peacetime staffing needs and wartime conversion to a contributing fighting force were used for justifying funding to Congress.

But some of the terms and methodology escape me now.

Again, thx.