It really is getting WORSE...

[Strega 0]

Today:

3 Americans killed in Mexico

(CNN) -- Three Americans died in weekend violence in the area of Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, a U.S. official said.

"Two citizens were fatally shot early Sunday close to the Zaragoza international bridge," State Department spokesman Philip Crowley said Monday. "In a separate incident, another U.S. citizen was fatally wounded in Ciudad Juarez itself."

Recently:

• Falcon Lake
  
• Mexico Violence
  
• Car Wash Killings
  
• Mayors being killed
  
• Juarez shooting
  
• Border Shooting
  
• Death Squad
  
• Organized Crime Deaths
  

Where is the real war?

Servicemen and women killed in Iraq/Afghanistan: 5,710

Number of people killed in Mexico: 28,228

[Strega 0]

2 more killed in MX...

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/03/2-killed-in-juarez-were-u-s-students-police-say/?iref=allsearch

Two students from the University of Texas at El Paso were shot and killed Tuesday night in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, Chihuahua state investigators told CNN late Wednesday.

The students, identified as Manuel Acosta Villalobos, 25, and Eder Diaz Sotero, 23, were gunned down in a hail of more than 30 bullets while driving a Nissan Sentra with Texas plates, Chihuahua State police spokesman Arturo Sandoval said.

Number of people killed in Mexico: 28,230

[Zenosan 2]

I am with you Roger. I went to Mexico often in the past but not anymore. Not worth the risk.

Even though I am not worth much to anyone as a hostage, the bad guys don't know that. The could chop off all ten fingers and no one would still send them any money to get ME back.

[kellymac530 0]

i think most people would pay them to keep me....

I gotta check my life insurance and see how much it pays if i die in a foreign country....maybe i do need to go to Mexico...

[racerbill 0]

I love going to Baja. When riding the back country I do my best to not join a drug gang in Juarez.

[PastaPilot 17]

I love FLYING to Cabo, walking from airplane to shuttle van to resort. Never having a need to leave the all inclusive resort for anything is a safe and secure feeling.

[robertaccio 412]

I would rather drive down through Tecate to Rancho Sta V and ride/race single track for days, then visit many parts of LA, NY, Baltimore, Detroit, DC etc etc .

estimated just a wag by me that at least 90% of those killed in Mex are in the biz. for historical context follow the Columbia story, when the pressure was strong against the trade the killing and terrorism skyrocketed, until the whole big org collapsed and common working folks reclaimed their country.

Note also: Hey US dopers stop buying the blood stained dope that you love so much!!!without a market the biz owners will wither up and their empires and violence will crumble. my 2 cents

[TrophyHunter 15]

In 2006....in the USA...

• 106,374 men and 90,080 women were diagnosed with lung cancer.*†
• 89,243 men and 69,356 women died from lung cancer.*†

We're killing ourselves at a faster rate. Still not sold on Mexico but after the briefing Tree, Javi & kkug gave Adam prior to his departure, It seemed a little more sane. 'Cept the part where Javi got jacked twice by the cops for money......

So, for now, switching to Skeptical Of Baja - SOB Jr.

BTW - Adam made it down to La Paz and took a ferry across to the mainland. He hopes to make Columbia in mid-January.

[bikeslut 1]

I would rather drive down through Tecate to Rancho Sta V and ride/race single track for days, then visit many parts of LA, NY, Baltimore, Detroit, DC etc etc .

estimated just a wag by me that at least 90% of those killed in Mex are in the biz. for historical context follow the Columbia story, when the pressure was strong against the trade the killing and terrorism skyrocketed, until the whole big org collapsed and common working folks reclaimed their country.

Note also: Hey US dopers stop buying the blood stained dope that you love so much!!!without a market the biz owners will wither up and their empires and violence will crumble. my 2 cents

I'm with you on this Robert... but that doesn't mean I would drive through Tijuana at night, on a motorcycle... just like I wouldn't drive through Compton in the middle of night, on a motorcycle.

I don't think any of us are trying to dictate what others should do, just keeping a dialog about the plusses and minuses of travel in foreign places.

Sitting on your couch is probably safer (as long as you're not smoking... I do crunches while I watch tv myself) but not near as fun

we each pick our comfort level, and they are all just opinions...

I've driven the mountain roads of Italy in a 3 cylinder diesel, in a rainstorm... I'm not scared of antyhing any more

[robertaccio 412]

I've driven the mountain roads of Italy in a 3 cylinder diesel, in a rainstorm... I'm not scared of antyhing any more

now thats some stuff,,a real adventure ride.!! done a few like that as well. on 2 and 4 wheels but never in 3 cylinder diesel!!hey welcome back!!

[Tree 0]

I understand you being afraid but statistics a very misleading.

Facts-

Square Miles

Afghanistan/Iraq-419,225

Mexico-756,066

Population

Afghanistan/Iraq- 59,384,000

Mexico-106,350,434

Tourist per year

Afghanistan/Iraq-2,165 in 2009-2010

Mexico- 21.5 million anually

If you add up the numbers and realize the cartels are killing mostly rival gangs and people involved in the drug trade it is no where near as dangerous as you are trying to portray. Obviously, as already mentioned, you have to be aware of your surroundings and not venture through the most dangerous areas but good planning and awareness will keep you safe.

Note- I just googled the figures so I am relying on internet info to be accurate.

Today:

3 Americans killed in Mexico

(CNN) -- Three Americans died in weekend violence in the area of Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, a U.S. official said.

"Two citizens were fatally shot early Sunday close to the Zaragoza international bridge," State Department spokesman Philip Crowley said Monday. "In a separate incident, another U.S. citizen was fatally wounded in Ciudad Juarez itself."

Recently:

• Falcon Lake
• Mexico Violence
• Car Wash Killings
• Mayors being killed
• Juarez shooting
• Border Shooting
• Death Squad
• Organized Crime Deaths

Where is the real war?

Servicemen and women killed in Iraq/Afghanistan: 5,710

Number of people killed in Mexico: 28,228

[PastaPilot 17]

In 2006....in the USA...

• 106,374 men and 90,080 women were diagnosed with lung cancer.*†
• 89,243 men and 69,356 women died from lung cancer.*†

We're killing ourselves at a faster rate. Still not sold on Mexico but after the briefing Tree, Javi & kkug gave Adam prior to his departure, It seemed a little more sane. 'Cept the part where Javi got jacked twice by the cops for money......

So, for now, switching to Skeptical Of Baja - SOB Jr.

BTW - Adam made it down to La Paz and took a ferry across to the mainland. He hopes to make Columbia in mid-January.

Not too many lung cancers have broken into a house and gunned down the owner and his family. When the cancer missed the family they showed up at a wedding and took out the rest of the family, cousins, uncles, friends. I can't think of a cancer that robbed and beat a couple on a weekend holiday or decapitated your neighbors. I don't think an oncologist has ever kidnapped, beaten and held a person for ransom.

It's very difficult to compare anything going on stateside to what is happening in Mexico.

[kellymac530 0]

Tree,

Not to be argumentative, just talking here.

Even by your internet stats, Mexico is less than double the land mass of Afghanistan/Iraq, LESS than double the population, and a very high tourist area, while Afghanistan/Iraq is in the midst of a true war, YET Mexico has 5 times the murders directly related to the drug war....i personally think your stats that you are using to argue stregas points actually prove that Mexico is NOT a great tourist choice.

That said i am not saying a person who feels comfortable to go there shouldnt...do what you want.

Just do it KNOWING that there is definately an issue that needs to be considered.

I personally SERIOUSLY DOUBT that all 28,000+ deaths are ALL or even mostly drug dealers and drug cartel members...especially when you see so many stories of tourist, jet skiiers, and even people in resorts being killed to make a statement...

I agree with TH that it WILL get eventually under control and improve...i really hope so soon, i love the region, and 99.999% of people i know and have met from there are awesome good people.

I just got back from a visit to New York and even had to go into a few questionable neighborhoods. Yes we had to be aware of our surroundings, pay attention, and deal with it much like you suggest people do in Mexico...but i was impressed with how many police were all over the place, and never ONCE was i shaken down by any of them.

I also know that IF ii would have had some problem and gotten arrested for some misunderstanding or mistake i could have called a bail bondsman and had a hearing.....and yadda yadda yadda done deal. NOT rotten for weeks or months in some hole somewhere inaccesable to my friends and family.

Again, Tree, CD, Steelie, JAT and anyone else who loves it and feels comfy there...Have a great time, love to see the pics and RRs but it is not for ME anytime really soon..thats all.

[TrophyHunter 15]

It's very difficult to compare anything going on stateside to what is happening in Mexico.

Couldn't agree more, Jon, just sayin' there are stats avail for everything. The Attorney General in Mexico actually had the huevos to say ONLY 30 some percent of the deaths are "innocents"...... makes me feel better.

Citing US murder rates is irrelevent too as most murders are by someone knowing the victim or a straight gang/drug/org crime killing. Not a lot of "innocents".

...if I ever need one, I'm checking my oncologists background though...

[Tree 0]

I'm not saying there aren't areas in Mexico (mostly border towns) I won't go to but just to say Mexico is worse then the middle east is ubsurd. Based on the amount of population including tourist, Mexico's numbers are not as dire as it looks by comparing the two side by side with out taking into account all the variables. You can skew the numbers to read any way you like. Also, comparing Strega's numbers it just states servies men and woman killed but doesn't account for residents of iraq/afghanistan. If we were just comparing americans killed in each situation give me that number.

Tree,

Not to be argumentative, just talking here.

Even by your internet stats, Mexico is less than double the land mass of Afghanistan/Iraq, LESS than double the population, and a very high tourist area, while Afghanistan/Iraq is in the midst of a true war, YET Mexico has 5 times the murders directly related to the drug war....i personally think your stats that you are using to argue stregas points actually prove that Mexico is NOT a great tourist choice.

That said i am not saying a person who feels comfortable to go there shouldnt...do what you want.

Just do it KNOWING that there is definately an issue that needs to be considered.

I personally SERIOUSLY DOUBT that all 28,000+ deaths are ALL or even mostly drug dealers and drug cartel members...especially when you see so many stories of tourist, jet skiiers, and even people in resorts being killed to make a statement...

I agree with TH that it WILL get eventually under control and improve...i really hope so soon, i love the region, and 99.999% of people i know and have met from there are awesome good people.

I just got back from a visit to New York and even had to go into a few questionable neighborhoods. Yes we had to be aware of our surroundings, pay attention, and deal with it much like you suggest people do in Mexico...but i was impressed with how many police were all over the place, and never ONCE was i shaken down by any of them.

I also know that IF ii would have had some problem and gotten arrested for some misunderstanding or mistake i could have called a bail bondsman and had a hearing.....and yadda yadda yadda done deal. NOT rotten for weeks or months in some hole somewhere inaccesable to my friends and family.

Again, Tree, CD, Steelie, JAT and anyone else who loves it and feels comfy there...Have a great time, love to see the pics and RRs but it is not for ME anytime really soon..thats all.

[kellymac530 0]

i am gonna go out on limb here and say, Im not going to the middle east or mexico anytime soon....not that i wouldnt love to explore both regions....just not right now

[racerbill 0]

Depending on whose statistics you use either 17000 or 40000 people a year are killed by drunk drivers on American roads. So if we're talking about citizens being gratuitously killed maybe we should invade ourselves.

[RogerTOWM 0]

Depending on whose statistics you use either 17000 or 40000 people a year are killed by drunk drivers on American roads. So if we're talking about citizens being gratuitously killed maybe we should invade ourselves.

You know Mexico also has the accidental deaths and the drunk drivers and the normal criminal murders just like we have.

But we are talking about People killed because of the drugs wars going on right now. If you think that Mexico is not at war then why are the Mexican armed forces battling people down there? I ain’t talking about police; I’m talking about soldiers, sailors, naval infantry and paratroopers.

[TrophyHunter 15]

http://www.blogdelnarco.com/#translate-en If a pictures worth a thousand words, this should do it. Click on the thumbnails on the right side (GRAFFIC PICS) if there's any doubt. Scan all 72 pages. I can't imagine anywhere in the US where this stuff is happening...hell, in Iraq or Afghanistan it would be a war crime. Hit the translate button at the top if you wanna read it in another language.

Police stations in small northeastern Mexican towns are frequently attacked, and several mayors have been assassinated. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/10/26/world/main6993871.shtml

Pasta makes a good point - can't even compare this type of anarchy & violence to anything in the US.

I'm glad many enjoy the riding & people there but I'll be on this side of the border for a while.

SOB Jr.

[Vagabundo 0]

I'm a little confused about the Mexico & Afghanistan comparison. I find the comparison between Mexico & Venezuela to be more interesting:

Square Miles

Venezuela-352,144

Mexico-756,066

Population

Venezuela- 26,814,843

Mexico-106,350,434

Tourist per year

Venezuela-340,315

Mexico- 21.5 million anually

Number of homicides from 2007 to 2009

Venezuela-43,792

Mexico- 28,228

Moral of this comparison - Don't go riding in Venezuela!

[Strega 0]

Oddly enough, the US doesn't border Venezuela

[SteelRain 0]

Oddly enough, the US doesn't border Venezuela

3 bikes, 2500ish miles, 2 weeks in Baja

number of issues - 2 (broken bikes)

Number of locals who went out of their way to help countless. From picking up the bike to put it in a truck, the next group who help unload it, to driving me to ensendada from Guerro Negro (and being upset I wanted to pay for anything let alone the gas)

to each their own, but the stats posted are rediculously skewed; the number of sevrvice members deployed since 2001 including multiple deploymemts like myself is nowhere near the population of Baja let alone Mexico.

[Mistress of the dual 1]

It's all relative. I spent my youth traveling around Mexico. Back then it was no big deal. These days I feel safer in the US than I do in Mexico, but then again I'd rather go hang out in San Felipe, Mexico than some neighborhoods in New York or Los Angeles.

[Crawdaddy 96]

Number of locals who went out of their way to help countless......to each their own.......

[Vagabundo 0]

Oddly enough, the US doesn't border Venezuela

Last time I looked at a map the U.S. didn't share a border with Afghanistan either.