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Bagstr

Dear 450 XCW Motor - I am Sorry to have been so hard on you.

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5 hours ago, Riggerdan said:

2014 XCW

1756 hours

118,340 miles

Average 67.39 MPH-I ain't riding with you¬†ūüė≥

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Wednesday Estimate of Repair,  SD Powerhouse

2016 450 XCW @ 315 Hrs = 8600 miles

Conversation:

The valves are fine. Combustion area looks like it is burning clean ( Euro Map )  Bottom End in good shape. Rings intact.

Not obvious why this thing failed. No operator misuse apparent.¬†Their best guess is that the piston was getting out of round to the point where it damaged the cylinder. Rare in their opinion. They think that if the piston¬†had been replaced one hour before failure, it would have been fine for awhile.¬†ūü§∑‚Äć‚ôāÔłŹ¬† As it is, I have the choice of re-coating the cylinder and new piston/rings. or new cylinder/piston kit. The coating would only save a couple of hundred because of more labor. I went with new kit.

 

As said before they don't think this is that low of hours for a failure of some type, given the use the bikes was subjected too.  ( Sand, sand & sand )

Tim is going to disassemble the  valves and clean it up, check guides and he thinks no need to replace parts until 500hrs or so.

If you want prices, send me a PM.  

 

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What caused all the scuffing? Did the 2016 have plastic oil pump gears (some years did)? Possible oil pump failure? Or maybe just too lean\detonation? What did the shop say?

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That is odd. Possibly started as a manufacturing defect in the cylinder or piston that took 300 hours to culminated in a failure.

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43 minutes ago, paulmbowers said:

I think JD is saying the bike was too lean in the mid to WOT range hence the need for his tuner. The TPS setting only affects the lower end. Bagstrs piston looks in much better shape though there is a remarkable lack of carbon buildup so maybe lean mixture. Bags - Didn't you say the bike had the EU map?

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Tim and Bob were of the opinion that it was running great, not lean or rich. I asked if a diff map would be a good idea and they no.  No oiling problem, valves good. Again to them it looked like a two stroke " Cold Seizure " .  No idea exactly what that is.  I am  fully aware that people get 5-700 hrs out of these motors, which is why I was waiting for it to be hard starting or something, to give me a clue.

Tim is of the opinion that these valve system are solid, better than the asian build.

Aware that the motor could have been put in a box and sent up the coast. Personally, like the concept that I can walk in and work with the team face to face. Mark has had a good experience with these guys, so I will continue to be part of the Buy Local experiment.

Stand By for results next week.  Bagstr

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Sorry your having troubles. Glad it didn't happen at an even more inconvenient time or place! Thanks for posting about this.

Dang! I just looked up the specs on that bike, what a ripper! I couldn't find a compression ratio though. What fuel do you run?

Always hard to tell in photos but it looks like the piston got just hot enough to start sticking to the cylinder wall. Aluminum gets into the top ring groove, cylinder pressure blasts past top ring and the problem snowballs...

Some causes that come to mind...

-As mentioned before detonation (old gas and an already close to lean tune?)

-As mentioned before that piston crown is really clean looking. Close to lean tune?

- Be sure the piston oil squirter is not clogged or receiving low oil pressure.

- Possible hot spot on cylinder? How does the cooling jacket look in that area?

 

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Yes, I do need to continue staying away from Walmart.  Do you even have Walmarts over in the Arizona Wilderness?

Comp = 11.8 to 1.   My overnight theory is that the ring stuck in the groove.  The mechanic was talking about all the systems he checked and they were all good.

My so called riding buddies are thinking the trouble started by lugging the motor in sixth gear in Inspiration Wash. Better to rev than lug. I just need to speed up.  I had just ridden 10 minutes of so of 5-6 gear changes, on and off.

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2 hours ago, Bagstr said:

My so called riding buddies are thinking the trouble started by lugging the motor in sixth gear in Inspiration Wash. Better to rev than lug. I just need to speed up.  I had just ridden 10 minutes of so of 5-6 gear changes, on and off.

Don't listen to those guys!

Just think of it as the work of the devil.

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As a final thought;  I believe installing a new piston / ring at about 250 hrs is a reasonable decision. Alternately, take your chances and go for 500 hrs and expect a cylinder. 

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34 minutes ago, Bagstr said:

As a final thought;  I believe installing a new piston / ring at about 250 hrs is a reasonable decision. Alternately, take your chances and go for 500 hrs and expect a cylinder. 

Probably not a bad idea. The KTM manual states you need to change a bunch of stuff every 135 hrs. Crazy! I can't believe they expect you to essentially do a complete rebuild every 135 hours!

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46 minutes ago, Bagstr said:

As a final thought;  I believe installing a new piston / ring at about 250 hrs is a reasonable decision. Alternately, take your chances and go for 500 hrs and expect a cylinder. 

I don't really care about the extra $ on rebuild- it's only a couple hundred more, and I'd be tempted to replace it anyway. Something about replacing the piston and rings without the cylinder seems uncomfortable. I know, I know, Nikasil is bulletproof, they all look ok unless there's been damage, etc.

What I want to avoid is a remote engine failure- we were fortunate yours failed in an ideal place for it- as you mentioned, had it failed in some of those Colorado locations, it'd have been a much bigger event.

I chatted with your buddy Bob at Powersports yesterday- don't worry, I honored all the HIPPA regulations about your bike, but I did ask about the idea of a new top end as a maintenance procedure. $800-1200.

 

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I like the idea of just running them until they explode. Then just borrow any random KLR and ride it to a UHaul dealer.

I hear this works well.

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  • Haha 1

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17 minutes ago, paulmbowers said:

I don't really care about the extra $ on rebuild- it's only a couple hundred more, and I'd be tempted to replace it anyway. Something about replacing the piston and rings without the cylinder seems uncomfortable. I know, I know, Nikasil is bulletproof, they all look ok unless there's been damage, etc.

What I want to avoid is a remote engine failure- we were fortunate yours failed in an ideal place for it- as you mentioned, had it failed in some of those Colorado locations, it'd have been a much bigger event.

I chatted with your buddy Bob at Powersports yesterday- don't worry, I honored all the HIPPA regulations about your bike, but I did ask about the idea of a new top end as a maintenance procedure. $800-1200.

 

Measure the cylinder. If it's in spec re-use it. Nikasil undamaged has a very long lifespan as long as the cylinder is round. The real question is OEM or aftermarket piston. Allegedly KTM uses Vertex pistons. OEM ~ $350 vs Vertex ~$175?

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4 minutes ago, Covered in Dust said:

I like the idea of just running them until they explode. Then just borrow any random KLR and ride it to a UHaul dealer.

I hear this works well.

ADB25E00-111A-42F8-8B06-BC208D560FE7.jpeg

See?

This is why we're riding buddies, not friends.

Should you be on the way to BAR10 anyway???

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14 minutes ago, paulmbowers said:

See?

This is why we're riding buddies, not friends.

Should you be on the way to BAR10 anyway???

Friends don’t let friends ride KLR’s

  • Haha 2

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On 9/27/2019 at 9:41 AM, Bagstr said:

Really, take the trouble of cleaning the injector and then run old gas.  

 

Hmm... wonder if something is amiss with the injector. It's an open loop fuel system so it relies on the calibration of the components for proper fueling (fuel pressure, injector flow, etc) as there's no closed loop correction on these bikes. Since you just cleaned the injector perhaps something went wonky. Coincidence? Just thinking outside the box.

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Cleaned Injector before Dolores trip.  Again the Pros thought the valves and piston looked great. I asked about changing map and they said, " Looks Great ". I will ask Bob to clean the injector again; before I run the rest of that old gas through it. 

PMB -  What exactly do you mean by a " Top End "?  Everything above the rod?

I like CIDs attitude.  Don't Worry,  just ride.

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11 minutes ago, Bagstr said:

Cleaned Injector before Dolores trip.  Again the Pros thought the valves and piston looked great. I asked about changing map and they said, " Looks Great ". I will ask Bob to clean the injector again; before I run the rest of that old gas through it. 

PMB -  What exactly do you mean by a " Top End "?  Everything above the rod?

I like CIDs attitude.  Don't Worry,  just ride.

Yeah but you surely didn't push the motor that hard in Delores and you were at high altitude where it's almost impossible to have detonation. For ~$25 you can have the injector flow tested and cleaned. I've never used these guys but they talk a good line: https://www.injectorrx.com/ 

IMO the cylinder\piston got very hot to stick the piston like that but then opinions are like .....

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Bagstr said:

PMB -  What exactly do you mean by a " Top End "?  Everything above the rod?

Typically a top end is valves, including regrind or replace valves, recut valve seats and replace, piston/rings and possibly replace/rehone cylinder.

Bob assures me the valves rarely need anything but an inspection, thorough cleaning, and a tiny touch with a seat cutter (NOT cutting a new angle- just a clean up) and reassembly. As a former automotive machine-shop guy, this makes me crazy- a proper ring/valve job always included machining the valve surfaces and cutting three-angle valve seats. But he says they never surface valves anymore- if the valves show signs of wear, they are replaced- $700/set. This was also my experience on my RFS motors, RIP.

 

A top end is essentially all the wear surfaces that are required for proper compression.

 

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