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paulmbowers

XC4 fuel pumps- what I've discovered

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Yesterday, my 2014 500 exc left me stranded.

While it remains the finest motorcycle ever conceived by nonspecifichigherpower, it is mortal, and proved to be so. I was happily riding along in a spirited manner when is brrrp-brrrp-brrrrrrrrp stopped.

A brief diagnostic ensued, and thanks to Homer, I swapped tanks with him (which includes the fuel pump, filter, etc) and the bike fired right up. Which meant I needed to be towed out of the trails and get the bike onto the truck. Good thing we were only a couple miles from the highway.

Got it home and pulled the fuel delivery system out of the tank- ah-HAAA, a very dark fuel filter. Unusual, because I change it fairly regularly, but easy enough to swap, and I had one in the toolbox. Buttoned it back up, put it back on the bike annnnnd- nothing. Fuel pump would spin, but not a happy whine- sounded rough. I swapped on one of my other tanks (with it's own fuel delivery system) (I have three tanks- tanks a lot!) and the bike again fired right up.

So- the fuel pump.

KTM list price on the OEM system (all hoses, pump, filters, etc) is $434- yikes!

I began the hunt for aftermarket options, and found two- the HPF https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XS6MP2B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 is $79 from Amazon and is well-regarded in the wilds of the internet. Comes with the pump, associated inlet screens, a standard fuel filter and the precious little accordion hoses that apparently people split or break, replacement fuel regulator, clamps, etc.  I ordered it, and it should be here tomorrow or sooner. Rottweiler sells this brand for the bigger bikes, which adds credibility for me.

But the other one- ahhh the other one!

The Kemso is $25.96.
Yup. For less than $26(!) they have a direct replacement kit that appears to be everything you'd want- pump, screens, filters, hoses, regulator- everything. Have a look: https://www.ebay.com/itm/292410625806
I just can't believe something so inexpensive might be a reliable replacement, so I won't use it as a primary. But I did order one, and will carry it as a backup and will heretofore carry one at all times. Important to mention- there are some tools one will need to do a in-the-field swap on the fuel system, specifically a wrench that will go up to 19mm- could be pliers- and another 15mm, both for the fuel fittings on the tank. Should we be riding together and you have a fuel system failure, this pump will be available for purchase in the field for only $127.89 payable on the spot via Venmo.

So- why the failure?

My ride previous to this one ran a bit long, and I ran out of fuel on approach to Borrego Springs last week. I had to tip the bike over to get those last precious drops and make it to the gas station.

The internet is full of urban myth that:
1. Running the tank dry will overheat the fuel pump causing it to fail.
2. Running the tank dry will force the pump to suck up "all the gunk at the bottom of the tank" and cause premature failure. You know, like a '57 chevy.

Personally, I believe neither of these myths- there's no gunk, I promise. It does bear mentioning that I ran the tank dry- but the bike ran well for the first hour or so yesterday, and I'd expect a overheating-related failure to occur more immediately. But who knows?


So- you now have the great benefit of my experience- I'll let you know more as the toys arrive.
 

p

PS: For those of you who are tempted to post "All these fuel injected bikes! When I was a kid, we had carbs and you can fix any carb on the side of the trail! We could adjust the ignition points, too! And we had two shocks in the back!" just sit on your hands. I've seen as many carb/needle/jet failures as I have fuel injection.

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Yes,  found myself wondering about that running dry impact. Had an F-150 with two tanks and I would run one dry before switching. Eventually failed.

Was that you original fuel pump or Ebay wonder?  Hours?

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1 minute ago, Bagstr said:

Yes,  found myself wondering about that running dry impact. Had an F-150 with two tanks and I would run one dry before switching. Eventually failed.

Was that you original fuel pump or Ebay wonder?  Hours?

It is an OEM KTM pump, but since I've purchased a few used and swapped around tanks, I'm not sure of the hours on that particular unit.

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1 hour ago, paulmbowers said:

Yesterday, my 2014 500 exc left me stranded.

While it remains the finest motorcycle ever conceived by nonspecifichigherpower, it is mortal, and proved to be so. I was happily riding along in a spirited manner when is brrrp-brrrp-brrrrrrrrp stopped.

A brief diagnostic ensued, and thanks to Homer, I swapped tanks with him (which includes the fuel pump, filter, etc) and the bike fired right up. Which meant I needed to be towed out of the trails and get the bike onto the truck. Good thing we were only a couple miles from the highway.

Got it home and pulled the fuel delivery system out of the tank- ah-HAAA, a very dark fuel filter. Unusual, because I change it fairly regularly, but easy enough to swap, and I had one in the toolbox. Buttoned it back up, put it back on the bike annnnnd- nothing. Fuel pump would spin, but not a happy whine- sounded rough. I swapped on one of my other tanks (with it's own fuel delivery system) (I have three tanks- tanks a lot!) and the bike again fired right up.

So- the fuel pump.

KTM list price on the OEM system (all hoses, pump, filters, etc) is $434- yikes!

I began the hunt for aftermarket options, and found two- the HPF https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XS6MP2B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 is $79 from Amazon and is well-regarded in the wilds of the internet. Comes with the pump, associated inlet screens, a standard fuel filter and the precious little accordion hoses that apparently people split or break, replacement fuel regulator, clamps, etc.  I ordered it, and it should be here tomorrow or sooner. Rottweiler sells this brand for the bigger bikes, which adds credibility for me.

But the other one- ahhh the other one!

The Kemso is $25.96.
Yup. For less than $26(!) they have a direct replacement kit that appears to be everything you'd want- pump, screens, filters, hoses, regulator- everything. Have a look: https://www.ebay.com/itm/292410625806
I just can't believe something so inexpensive might be a reliable replacement, so I won't use it as a primary. But I did order one, and will carry it as a backup and will heretofore carry one at all times. Important to mention- there are some tools one will need to do a in-the-field swap on the fuel system, specifically a wrench that will go up to 19mm- could be pliers- and another 15mm, both for the fuel fittings on the tank. Should we be riding together and you have a fuel system failure, this pump will be available for purchase in the field for only $127.89 payable on the spot via Venmo.

So- why the failure?

My ride previous to this one ran a bit long, and I ran out of fuel on approach to Borrego Springs last week. I had to tip the bike over to get those last precious drops and make it to the gas station.

The internet is full of urban myth that:
1. Running the tank dry will overheat the fuel pump causing it to fail.
2. Running the tank dry will force the pump to suck up "all the gunk at the bottom of the tank" and cause premature failure. You know, like a '57 chevy.

Personally, I believe neither of these myths- there's no gunk, I promise. It does bear mentioning that I ran the tank dry- but the bike ran well for the first hour or so yesterday, and I'd expect a overheating-related failure to occur more immediately. But who knows?


So- you now have the great benefit of my experience- I'll let you know more as the toys arrive.
 

p

PS: For those of you who are tempted to post "All these fuel injected bikes! When I was a kid, we had carbs and you can fix any carb on the side of the trail! We could adjust the ignition points, too! And we had two shocks in the back!" just sit on your hands. I've seen as many carb/needle/jet failures as I have fuel injection.

Funny I just bought a Kemso to keep in my toolbox JIC. Figured it may save a trip for me or one of my my buddies when on a multi day ride many miles from home. Visually it looks decent. I bought the pump and not the regulator. I wonder how often the regulator fails? I would think if the regulator failed it still might run but not well. Also I would assume it is more robust than the pump but I might be wrong on that. My RZR fuel  pump failed and it turned out to be a bad oring between the pump and the housing. Have you taken the housing apart and inspected?

 

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2 minutes ago, PbdBlue said:

Funny I just bought a Kemco to keep in my toolbox JIC. Figured it may save a trip for me or my buddies when I'm on a multiday ride many miles from home. Visually it looks decent. I bought the pump and not the regulator. I wonder how often the regulator fails. I would assume it is more robust than the pump but I might be wrong on that. My RZR fuel  pump failed and it turned out to be a bad oring between the pump and the housing. Have you taken the housing apart and inspected?

 

I did, yes- remembering our conversation I did a quick visual assessment of the regulator. I don't know about the reg on your cockaroach, but the bike's is on the rear 4-bolt flange on this bike. It's a funny little silver cylindrical thingy. Appears seated and intact.

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12 minutes ago, paulmbowers said:

I did, yes- remembering our conversation I did a quick visual assessment of the regulator. I don't know about the reg on your cockaroach, but the bike's is on the rear 4-bolt flange on this bike. It's a funny little silver cylindrical thingy. Appears seated and intact.

You're not referring to the ultimate dirt bike which is cousin to the inferior 500 are you? And yes I believe the 350 uses the same assembly as the 500. If you're talking about the RZR the pump assy is a much different animal externally but the actual pump is similar. Upon looking at a video I see that the KTM fuel pump attaches directly to the hose so no oring involved. The RZR uses a Bosch fuel pump assy (probably from some car application) and has an oring between the pump outlet and the housing. 

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11 minutes ago, PbdBlue said:

You're not referring to the ultimate dirt bike which is cousin to the inferior 500 are you? 

Nah...SxS = Cockaroach.

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18 minutes ago, paulmbowers said:

Nah...SxS = Cockaroach.

Ouch! Let us know the outcome. I'm approaching 7000 miles on the bike and this makes me nervous. BTW - what method did you employ for the tow? Foot peg to foot peg?

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2 minutes ago, PbdBlue said:

 Foot peg to foot peg?

Nooo.

Years ago, Strega came up with a very cool towing rig that uses a short length of 10mm climbing rope, a figure 8 descender and a length of tow strap, originally Mule Tape intended for pulling through conduit. I connect the rig to my front Tugger strap, leading the 10mm back to the bars which can easily be released if necessary. Works a treat and the safest towing rig I know. Here's a pic- I nixed the green strap for the Tugger.

I don't use multiple tie-downs, bungee straps, etc. Towing sucks.

IMG_9319.jpeg

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I actually have a similar setup but I quit carrying it due to the bulk. Maybe I should rethink carrying it? 🙄 And yes towing sucks - for the tow'r and the tow'e but more so for the later.

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32 minutes ago, paulmbowers said:

Nooo.

Years ago, Strega came up with a very cool towing rig that uses a short length of 10mm climbing rope, a figure 8 descender and a length of tow strap, originally Mule Tape intended for pulling through conduit. I connect the rig to my front Tugger strap, leading the 10mm back to the bars which can easily be released if necessary. Works a treat and the safest towing rig I know. Here's a pic- I nixed the green strap for the Tugger.

I don't use multiple tie-downs, bungee straps, etc. Towing sucks.

IMG_9319.jpeg

Well there's your problem right there. A Swedish label on an Austrian dirt bike? Sacrilege!

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1 minute ago, PbdBlue said:

 A Swedish label on an Austrian dirt bike? Sacrilege!

Nah. I've had that on there forever. And I've only fallen 1,687 times since. And only broke down once.

Hmm.

Maybe there's something to it after all.

 

 

 

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Burning Question  🌋  Were you listening to Recorded entertainment while being towed?

 It is a statement of mental state.

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43 minutes ago, Bagstr said:

Burning Question  🌋  Were you listening to Recorded entertainment while being towed?

 It is a statement of mental state.

I was not.

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5 hours ago, paulmbowers said:

Yesterday, my 2014 500 exc left me stranded.


The Kemso is $25.96.
Yup. For less than $26(!) they have a direct replacement kit that appears to be everything you'd want- pump, screens, filters, hoses, regulator- everything. Have a look: https://www.ebay.com/itm/292410625806 

 

Thank for the tip Paul!

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I hear fuel pumps last longer on Orange bikes. 

And they tip over less often. 

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18 minutes ago, Ken S said:

I hear fuel pumps last longer on Orange bikes. 

And they tip over less often. 

That's color-ist!

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6 hours ago, paulmbowers said:

Should we be riding together and you have a fuel system failure, this pump will be available for purchase in the field for only $127.89 payable on the spot via Venmo.

And this. ladies and gentlemen, is why it is good to have good friends watching out for you!

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Wow, don't hear about fuel pumps failing that often. Thanks for sharing the research on the replacements. There is a lot of junk stuffed into the tank. Could be the pump, regulator, cracked filter, hole in a hose, etc. Were you able to determine what component failed? Sounds like you weren't able to get a pressure reading? 

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So I took a look at the Kemso pump I purchased and noticed that it has a shorter non-barbed nipple to attach the outlet hose to. Looking at the Quantum and CA-Cycleworks pumps they both have a longer barbed nipple which appears to be a better design. I think the Kemso is fine for an emergency spare but I would choose one of the others for actual replacement.

IMG_8928.thumb.jpg.b4b8a95356217ce2c8396f00899f45d6.jpg

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We could use one of these.  I need to get a fitting and construct one.

https://slavensracing.com/shop/fuel-pressure-gauge-for-ktm-husaberg-hqv-beta-by-slavens-racing/

Appears to be 60lbs of liquid pressure scale.  48-52 lbs according to Jeff's video.

Fuel Pump replacement video -  https://slavensracing.com/shop/fuel-pump-ktm-husaberg-husqvarna-ca-cycleworks/

THUMPER TALK  -  https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1202577-fuel-pump-options-for-ktm-500-exc-aftermarketoem/

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1 minute ago, Bagstr said:

We could use one of these.  I need to get a fitting and construct one.

https://slavensracing.com/shop/fuel-pressure-gauge-for-ktm-husaberg-hqv-beta-by-slavens-racing/

Appears to be 60lbs of liquid pressure scale.  48-52 lbs according to Jeff's video.

Fuel Pump replacement video -  https://slavensracing.com/shop/fuel-pump-ktm-husaberg-husqvarna-ca-cycleworks/

I looked at that and actually almost ordered it. Price is pretty reasonable. Thinking a pressure check might be a good routine maintenance thing to do. I have a fitting that I removed when I added the Zipty filter. Just gotta remember where I put it????? Getting old sucks.....

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Motion pro makes a quick disconnect for cheap, I made a temporary pressure gauge just like slavens in 2015 when I had fuelling problems on my husky 350.

FYI for the newer ktms 2017ish and 18s if your having fuelling issues and can hear pump running, it's probably a cracked fuel filter. I've helped 2 buddies with original in tank filters crack less than 50hrs both of them. Guess was a bad batch

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