motoGP

[kellymac530 0]

maybe one of you guys can help me figure this out....in the last 2 seasons of motoGP i have noticed a new trend of guy dropping out a leg on corner entry. i have NOT seen this done in ama superbike or even world super bike.

there may be a few reasons for this...what is your ideas as to why....is it a type of blocking move to take up space on the inside line?

is it to force them to weight the outside peg? is it to create wind drag and add to braking...they do it on right and left croners so i cant believe its more effective than the rear brake...

is it purely to help them lean in on corner entry? seems like the old hang a cheek off would work as well, and since it has been proven your balance is in your feet, seems like taking a foot off of the peg and letting it flail out in the air is counter productive....

if it really is effective, why dont the SBike guys do it as well, is it a handling glitch in the GP bikes that the SB bikes dont have?

interesting phenomenom....not even everyone in gp is doing it, pedrosa some, rossi some, lorenzo not, casey stoner always...

[dirt dame 559]

I think that it's tied to dirt riding and flat track. They often slide or drift through turns, though not usually as radically as flat track racers.

[Covered in Dust 163]

My understanding is that Rossi started doing it a couple of years ago because he felt it gave him better balance under hard braking going into corners. He only does it once in aawhile and other riders are trying it because if the Doctor says it helps there might be some truth to it.

cn

[paulmbowers 236]

I taught him that. He won't admit it publicly, though.

[Covered in Dust 163]

Paul when you do it it's both legs going thru intersections. Rossi just copied part of it.

cn

I taught him that. He won't admit it publicly, though.

[ShapedFuture 0]

100% of their weight is kept on the outside peg during braking and the inside leg helps with balance during that hard braking (or so they say)

[paulmbowers 236]

Yeah- here's how I explained to to Rossi:

100% del loro peso viene mantenuto al di fuori piolo in frenata e il

interno gamba aiuta con l'equilibrio nel corso di tale frenata brusca

[Strega 0]

100% of their weight is kept on the outside peg during braking and the inside leg helps with balance during that hard braking (or so they say)

This is correct, all their weight is on the other foot to keep the rear end tracking and it helps with more traction. It also adds a TOUCH of wind resistance, helping them slow a bit more, allowing slightly later braking. It also forces concentration on the weight being put on the outside foot. They then settle back down to the peg as they lean in. McCoy and Rainey used to do it too.

[robertaccio 406]

+1 thanks Strega, that is one of the reasons for the leg out in MX/offroad as well, weight transfer, counterbalance, stability.

[Covered in Dust 163]

I personally think it's just Rossi's way of telling the other riders that if you try to out brake me and pass on the inside I'm going to kick you over.

cn

[Crawdaddy 96]

I'm no racer, but I'd say it's a blocking move

My technique is inside peg = street, outside peg = dirt..........that's what I picked up from attending street riding classes with Reg Prigmore (street - http://www.classrides.com/) and a dirt riding class with Gary LaPlante (dirt - http://motoventures.com/)

Street or dirt, I was also taught by both instructors to focus on "feeling" the bike from the pegs up not the head down.......steer with the feet/knees/ass.......relax the upper body......upper body tension = trouble in either environment

On a street bike, I was taught to shift my weight to the inside peg and slide my butt over "slightly" inside while also pushing the gas tank over with my outside knee......as the lean angle increases there will be a natural tendency to push slightly on the inside bar end and pull slightly on the outside bar end (counter steering is a natural byproduct of proper weight shift).....active peg weight shifting, active knees, active saddle position will facilitate "flickability" while alowing the upper body to relax.....at least that's the way I remember it.....Prigmore's emphasis is on "smooth" brake/throttle mechanics......chop the throttle or brakes and you'll throw off the weight balance and really screw things up......be smooth with the clutch/throttle, rev high in the turns for greater throttle response, and manage things with the throttle as opposed to your brake lever....

On the dirt, I generally weight the outside peg to aid in traction and counterbalancing given the nature of the riding surface......

We have a few street racers here who can "weigh in" on the subject......maybe techniques have changed, but that's the way I was taught......and for the type of casual riding I do it works just fine.....

[kellymac530 0]

i agree with many of the post...but my quiery is based on my road racing experience and my watching RR...as you lean in you actually weight the inside peg as opposed to mx where you always weight the outside...to support my thinking, go back and watch almost ANY RR in the past and see that especially the smaller riders dont even have their foot on the outside peg thru a corner...their butt is way over the inside, with their inside foot on the peg and their OUTSIDE leg just hooked over the seat and foot OFF of the peg....either one of these techniques is right and the other wrong or vice versa.....

see my head scratching here....

on a street/sport bike my feet only come off the pegs at stops or when things have gone horrible wrong...but what do i know...

[KTMrad 508]

Chris and Kelly, you are correct.........in roadracing and street riding, you weight the INSIDE peg.....your foot only slightly rests or touches the outside peg.

Dirt riding is opposite, because you're not leaning the bike like on pavement riding.

[kellymac530 0]

crawdad...you posted at the same time I did...that is exactly what i was taught and have experience...

i went to RR classes from reynard fiscus and wes cooley and mx from so. cal mx traing and 40 yrs of doing it....that is my confusion....

[kellymac530 0]

the smaller front tire than rear and steering geometry make a street bike steer differet and the bigger front wheel to rr wheel on a dirt bike and the loose surface forces you to need to keep pressure on the outside peg to keep the axle line weighted for traction...

if you lean a dirt bike slightly over and look at the plane of the axles and foot peg, you will see the peg is somewhat in line...the weights the lower portion of the wheel for traction on the knobs...

on a street bike the weight mass is SOOO much lower on the chassis that is NOT an issue, keeping your weight low and the bike as verticle as possible keeps the biggest contact patch that is why we hang off..

i honestly think it is an intimidation tech to use up more inside line while riding in the faster entry line....jmho

[kellymac530 0]

delete..? you are the one person i agree with on this one....come on dont leave me hanging

[KTMrad 508]

delete..? you are the one person i agree with on this one....come on dont leave me hanging

I think Chris was referring to his post that just quoted his previous post, that's why the delete.

And also, he's not the only one who agreed with you......you and I posted at the same time also.

[Strega 0]

Chris and Kelly, you are correct.........in roadracing and street riding, you weight the INSIDE peg.....your foot only slightly rests or touches the outside peg.

Did I read that wrong? Or did you just say weight the INSIDE peg?? I hope I'm just reading that wrong because weight on the inside peg is VERY VERY (Did I say VERY???) bad...

If you want to lowside 100% of the time, weight the inside peg during a lean. Part of weighting the outside peg is that it locks the knee to the tank and helps you avoid leaning too far. The lean doesn't give you extra speed, in fact it slows you down as it increases the friction area of the tire surfaces. Too much lean and you're gonna break out of your triangle (front traction + rear traction + center of gravity). When you lower your CG, the more likely you are to exceed your fw/rw traction which you can adjust by changing where your bodyweight is on the bike. Weight the inside peg, in a turn, and you're further lowering your CG and potentially 'pushing' the tires out from under yourself. The real risk in weighting the inside is that the bike will give bad feedback, it will feel unstable, and likely it will low side. At the track, inside weight can actually cause your rear wheel to slide...and if you don't continue the slide and the rear tire grabs asphalt and connects, you're looking at potentially high-siding the bike if you're not an exceptional rider, aka Rossi, Stoner, Lorenzo, etc. Also, you're more likely to cause the front to slide, since the contact patch is smaller. You're literally better off putting the same weight/pressure on both pegs than weighing the inside one.

You'll notice when the pro's are doing this, the guys dropping the inside leg off the peg, only further shows that no weight is on the inside peg, and when the boot is back on the peg it's like a feather sitting on a beach ball. You watch these guys really really closely, and you'll see the outside leg flex as they brace, and that inside leg is a noodle, puck lightly sliding over the track. If you also notice, if you are weighting the inside leg, you wouldn't be able to swing your leg out effectively and upset the bike with the CG change. If you put pressure down on that knee you're gonna have really bad things happen. Raise the front a tad and you lowside, raise the back a tad and you're gonna high side. Well, you *could* raise the front, crank on the gas and wheelie your exit, but hang the f**k on. Far easier to end your lean, crank on the gas and weigh both pegs while the bike rights itself. Also, lean forward over the tank while doing that, helps keep the front down during acceleration.

Oh, other reason for not weighting the inside peg, if it's the left side of the bike, you can't shift. Specially if the balls of your feet are on the pegs like they should be.

If I was good enough I'd be racing Lorenzo for points right now, and it's obvious I'm not, but I'm certain my points above are spot on. Many moons ago, this was my thing, but no longer since I've learned the ways of the Dual Sport. (Happily converted)

[Crawdaddy 96]

Did I read that wrong?

Nope, you read it correctly......street = inside, dirt = outside.....at least that's how "I" ride

Also, I don't "hang" off the bike when riding around on the street (like some dumb-ass Squids I've seen).......so shifting while turning left is a non issue "for me"....

[KTMrad 508]

From Keith Code, cornering Guru himself........so, while I thought it is all the weight on peg principle, it is actually a combination of all the physics involved.....and when I think about it, yes........that's what it is, it's not just about the weight of the foot........

Question on Superbike School forum..........

I have been watching/studying dvd's of the GP and AMA seasons and have noticed that many of the pro's don't have their outside leg pinned into the fuel tank while they're "hanging-off". Why is this? How can they be "light on the bars" if they are not supporting themselves elsewhere on the motorcycle? Can their body positioning relative to the lean angle of the bike allow them to do this? I am very interested in your feedback here.

From Keith.........

Good question:

(1) half the answer is in how much time top riders spend working out.

(2) Another part of the answer is how well the bikes are adjusted to the individual rider.

(3) Another is in the parts that are used.

(4) One more part is: There is more than one way to sit on a bike and still be able to be attached to it without stranging it and adding unwanted inputs into it.

In #1, using the back and abs can keep you off the bars.

In #2, getting just the right seat and seat height, peg position, bar position, in other words fitting the rider perfectly to the bike is a huge help. A small change in the bike's ergonomics gives big rewards.

In #3, using good footpegs alone gives huge stability to the riders lower half, allowing the upper half to be more relaxed, so do non slippery seats help keep the rider fixed and off the bars.

In #4, some riders use the tank to help and clamp onto it with their inner thighs and sometimes the arm, the seat can be used for this as well. Some use more inside leg, holding themselves up. Often it is a combination of all of them.

When you look at the engineering of the bike and a rider's body you can come up with a theoretical "best" way of sitting on the bike for the purpose of being loose on the bars. Will eveyone like it? Probably not. Would it work for everyone? Functionally yes, but personal prefernce and feel can sometimes overshadow what works the best.

The actual mechanics of how riders sit on bikes wasn't much of a subject before 1993. No one had looked at it from a technical viewpoint. Now we know more and can make the rider's job a lot easier based on solid principals.

Keith

[paulmbowers 236]

I've made a personal study of this, and have also been to schools with (Laguna Seca, Sears Point, Willow SPrings x 2) Reg Prigmore (street -http://www.classrides.com/) and a dirt riding class with Gary LaPlante (dirt - http://motoventures.com/) .

After lots of practice, I return to the same tried and true technique:

When approaching a turn, either on or off road, I recite a mantra:

Don't fall.

Don't fall.

Don't fall.

Don't fall.

Don't fall.

Don't fall.

After literally tens of thousands of curves and turns navigated successfully, I've proven this method works over and over. I was considering patenting it.

[kellymac530 0]

streegs, i actually dis-agree with you to some extent...i am NOT saying stand all of your weight on the inside peg...of course NOT...but on the street/sport bikes i have always used some weight on the inside peg.

i too have seen the spaz riders who have no idea how or why they are hanging off, they are just TRYING to look like others....but hanging off is useful technique to keep the bike in a more upright position and using bar input to help turn the bike rather than JUST lean angle...

rad is right, as is mr. code, it is a combination of movements depending on the shape, camber, speed, and width of the corner that determines how far you may hang off, stick out a knee, or just lean in.

i regularlly have leaned in so far that outside foot has come up off the peg and being used as more of a hook...look at old vids or pics of mick dohaan, randy renfrow{rip}, or even the GOAT {imho} kevin schwantz...they all often corner with their outside foot off of the peg.

on a sport bike the pegs are so much higher than the axle line that some pressure on the inside peg is not putting the negative pressure on the tire as it does on a dirt bike....

im gonna have to try the "dont fall, dont fall" technique tho...what do you charge for patent encroachment violations?

[ShapedFuture 0]

During hard braking zones.... MotoGP riders keep all their weight on the outside peg...

This was the question originally asked... Rossi even said this several times in video-interviews. All the weight on the outside during hard-braking and the inside foot used for balance/stability

This ratio changes when they near the apex of any corner obviously.. but I was just answering the original question =)

[paulmbowers 236]

im gonna have to try the "dont fall, dont fall" technique tho...what do you charge for patent encroachment violations?

While I do believe (however unpopular here at SDAR) in protecting intellectual property rights, I'mm provide the don't fall mantra as a service to our community.

Hey, it works for me nearly all the time.

[kellymac530 0]

yes i too have made tens of thousands of corners both on and off road and nearly all of them successful.

it is just those 2 or 3 times that i wasnt successful that sucks....everyone remembers the 1 in one million that you crash...

you never are sitting around a campfire talking about those 2000 successful turns you made today, just the ONE turn you tucked the front on

or broke your wrist on, or broke your petcock on orrrrrrrrrr