Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 20, 2015 So I don't know wtf happened here. I took the stator side off, discovered that the starter motor still spins, then bolted everything back up. It's only a matter of a few gears in there and I've done this same thing on multiple bikes (including replacing stators before) and never had this issue. Maybe I flipped the gears or effed something up but who knows. As much as I wish I could fix it myself, I'm getting somewhat frustrated with the bike and I should be spending my free time studying vs tinkering in the garage. Any last ideas before I send it to a pro? I hope these videos help. Thank you all for the support / help! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reximus 10 Posted October 20, 2015 I know not what you speak of when you suggest I check for "ohms". May I suggest to you a quick Wiki Read on the Unrelated Homonym "Om" The bike should have a stock stator with the BD "rewind" to DC conversion that PbdBlue mentioned above. Now that I think of it.. I actually have another stock BD modified stator and BD regulator from an 08 WR450 in my garage too. Bp619 - I may try to remove the starter motor or at least take the cover off and post some pics. PaulMBowers - you're the second to mention binding/sticking so you guys may be onto something Bagstr - as far as spark goes, if the starter never turns.. over would I have spark? I honestly don't know. Reximus - My garage is a bit tight to work in currently. But I'm afraid my bike will get kicked over in your garage.. I'm hoping to start diagnosing the starting issue a bit more this week, somehow, some way. Bikes are not safe at my house! However, I can come over and bring my ohm meter... Could the timing have slipped? My YZ would not kick start for the life of it, everything was 1 tooth off on the cams, bike would barely start. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reximus 10 Posted October 20, 2015 So I don't know wtf happened here. I took the stator side off, discovered that the starter motor still spins, then bolted everything back up. It's only a matter of a few gears in there and I've done this same thing on multiple bikes (including replacing stators before) and never had this issue. Maybe I flipped the gears or effed something up but who knows. As much as I wish I could fix it myself, I'm getting somewhat frustrated with the bike and I should be spending my free time studying vs tinkering in the garage. Any last ideas before I send it to a pro? I hope these videos help. Thank you all for the support / help! Sounds like motor spins but does not push the gear out that actually turns the motor. Take starter off and check that the gear that spins can move freely on te shaft....mmmmm yeah just like that. There should be a spring that pulls it back when you let off the starter button. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reximus 10 Posted October 20, 2015 With the BD modified stator the spark comes from the 12 volt dc circuit. Trigger coil in the stator assembly provides the signal to fire but not the power. So just so I understand the starter turns the motor over but it doesn't fire or it doesn't turn the motor over? Not sure if I agree with you, I believe that BD rewinds the stator only, not the stock ignition coils- thats why the "rumor" is that BD is better than RS for stators, because with BD you keep the stock OEM ignition coil and RS uses and aftermarket ignition coil. If everything else but the ignition coils and cdi were fried, the bike should run just fine. But I also thought my bikes were safe in my garage, and they certainly weren't. First time I've been wrong in my life! Timmy you really need to get your OHMs on, that will rule out a bad igniton coil. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hodnettjj 0 Posted October 20, 2015 The current issue sounds like the starter clutch is not engaging. Either because the starter isn't coming in contact with it... or it's still on the bench/floor... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 20, 2015 The current issue sounds like the starter clutch is not engaging. Either because the starter isn't coming in contact with it... or it's still on the bench/floor... Just for you I went and checked. Nope, the starter clutch isn't on the floor nor bench. I don't know wtf is going on now. The starter sounds like it's spinning but the clutch either isn't connecting to the stator or something is up with the starter itself. It's only a few gears and they automatically line up. I have no idea. On an unrelated aside, that ASV lever uses some small bearings at the swivel joint (the silver part of the blue/silver lever - you can see one of the small bearings next to the lever). These bearings go bad apparently - at least mine did and I now need to get them replaced. So much for unbreakable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reximus 10 Posted October 20, 2015 "WR450 for sale. Low hours/miles. ASV levers. BD dual sport kit. bump start only...." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PbdBlue 46 Posted October 20, 2015 With the BD modified stator the spark comes from the 12 volt dc circuit. Trigger coil in the stator assembly provides the signal to fire but not the power. So just so I understand the starter turns the motor over but it doesn't fire or it doesn't turn the motor over? Not sure if I agree with you, I believe that BD rewinds the stator only, not the stock ignition coils- thats why the "rumor" is that BD is better than RS for stators, because with BD you keep the stock OEM ignition coil and RS uses and aftermarket ignition coil. If everything else but the ignition coils and cdi were fried, the bike should run just fine. But I also thought my bikes were safe in my garage, and they certainly weren't. First time I've been wrong in my life! Timmy you really need to get your OHMs on, that will rule out a bad igniton coil. It has nothing to do with the ignition coil which by the way is integrated into the spark plug cap. The estart WR only has two stator coils. Neither is dedicated to the ignition. BD floats the ground and ties them together to form 1 larger coil. The pickup is just a coil that senses the crank position and tells the ecu when to fire the ignition coil. Disconnect the battery on a BD modified bike and try to kickstart it - it will not run. The ecu needs 12 volts from the battery to fire the ignition coil. The stock WR wiring will run without the battery since it get it's power directly from the AC stator but that goes away with the BD mod. Pretty familiar with the setup as I've owned 5 of them over the years before I drank the koolaid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vacman 0 Posted October 20, 2015 Regardless, he's trying to diagnose a starting issue not a running issue. It ran the last time he bumpstarted it. Previously he would press the button and the motor wouldn't rotate. Now the starter spins free when he presses the button. Tim, assuming the reassembly was correct I would narrow my focus to the starter assembly. What happens when you kick it now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vacman 0 Posted October 20, 2015 Also what about the decomp? Is it actually doing anything? If the decomp doesn't release, there's no way the starter can turn the motor. Spamming starter button with motor not turning is a good way to kill the starter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
350thumper 336 Posted October 20, 2015 Take off the flywheel the starter clutch is under it rebuild with new factory parts. Recharge battery. Take starter apart clean armature and install brush kit.($15) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PbdBlue 46 Posted October 20, 2015 Sorry I got sidetracked:) His current issue with the starter spinning freely is most likely due to putting the torque limiter\idler gear in backwards. Pull the small cover next to the starter and check. If it's backwards you just need to flip it around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PbdBlue 46 Posted October 20, 2015 Back to the original problem. As I understand it the bike is difficult to start with either the kickstart or the estart? The fact that it runs well once it's started would seem the electricals\carb are probably ok unless intermittent which is possible. I know someone else mentioned it but have you checked the valve clearance? A tight valve will cause those symptoms. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 20, 2015 Here is a picture of the idler assembly / idler gear. It is assembled correctly imho The idler assembly (not sure what it does exactly) but it connects the starter motor output shaft to this gear (follow the orange arrows). The gear highlighted by the orange arrows turns in one direction. Question - when I kickstart the bike, what is happening? ie what does the violent action of the kickstarter cranking then turn/spin? I ask this because here is what it sounds like when I kick the bike over. Wtf is that whine? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bp619 104 Posted October 20, 2015 Something must not be together right sounds like when you kick or electric start its not getting to the crank. So something along the gear round isnt together right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PbdBlue 46 Posted October 20, 2015 The idler/torque limiter gear is a slip arrangement that prevents damaging the flywheel key in the event of a backfire when starting. The 03 wr's didn't have it and sheared crank keys. The big gear on the back of the flywheel is mounted to a one way sprag. When you kick start the flywheel should not turn the starter motor. Could be the sprag failed though they usually fail by slipping in either direction. If you remove the idler/torque limiter is it still hard to kick? If so I would pull the valve cover and have a look. Could be the auto-decomp mechanism is messed up. If you pull the plug does it turn over easily? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vacman 0 Posted October 20, 2015 Talked to Tim a bit ago. With the decomp activated he said it's much easier to kick so I believe it's working as intended. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reximus 10 Posted October 20, 2015 With the BD modified stator the spark comes from the 12 volt dc circuit. Trigger coil in the stator assembly provides the signal to fire but not the power. So just so I understand the starter turns the motor over but it doesn't fire or it doesn't turn the motor over?Not sure if I agree with you, I believe that BD rewinds the stator only, not the stock ignition coils- thats why the "rumor" is that BD is better than RS for stators, because with BD you keep the stock OEM ignition coil and RS uses and aftermarket ignition coil.If everything else but the ignition coils and cdi were fried, the bike should run just fine. But I also thought my bikes were safe in my garage, and they certainly weren't. First time I've been wrong in my life! Timmy you really need to get your OHMs on, that will rule out a bad igniton coil. It has nothing to do with the ignition coil which by the way is integrated into the spark plug cap. The estart WR only has two stator coils. Neither is dedicated to the ignition. BD floats the ground and ties them together to form 1 larger coil. The pickup is just a coil that senses the crank position and tells the ecu when to fire the ignition coil. Disconnect the battery on a BD modified bike and try to kickstart it - it will not run. The ecu needs 12 volts from the battery to fire the ignition coil. The stock WR wiring will run without the battery since it get it's power directly from the AC stator but that goes away with the BD mod. Pretty familiar with the setup as I've owned 5 of them over the years before I drank the koolaid. Well you have owned 5 more WRs than I. Damn looks like I am wrong a 2nd time in my life. Where do you get that koolaid anyway I am about ready to take a sip too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PbdBlue 46 Posted October 20, 2015 At the orange bike shop:) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
350thumper 336 Posted October 21, 2015 Weird , sounds like something broke off or fell down into the motor.like a shim or tooth of a gear. Take the cover off the other side of the motor where the kickstarter is. Or send it to Thomas..alpine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 21, 2015 The WR is getting pushed to the backburner for a week as I have testing coming up. First step is to remove stator cover and verify that everything went in correctly (I'm pretty darn certain I did it correctly but it might be a little "goofy" in there..) Something is spinning that shouldn't be. Try to identify that then move forward. We know: The battery is new The starter solenoid works correctly The manual decomp lever seems to work The engine isn't stuck The stator has no physical damage The starter motor spins (not tested under load) It has fresh oil So.. IF I need to replace the starter at some point (not sure that is even my real issue here).. -New OEM? $$$ -'Lightly used' OEM off eBay? $$ -Aftermarket? $ Thank you ALL for your help & ideas so far!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
350thumper 336 Posted October 22, 2015 When the cover is off, try to spin the idler on starter clutch both ways. It shud only spin one way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vacman 0 Posted October 22, 2015 I believe he told me it spins both ways when I was on the phone with him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
350thumper 336 Posted October 23, 2015 Just to be clear, are we able to turn the crankshaft all the way around twice freely with the plug pulled out? To see that it doesn't bind .? Idler cog shud only spin backwards when installed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PbdBlue 46 Posted October 23, 2015 So when the starter engages does it turn the engine over ok but it just won't start? Or will the starter not turn the engine over? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
