wr250rrrrr

Left on red, not happening.

22 posts in this topic

The last few bikes I've owned seemed to set off all of the inductive loop sensors. I'm on a 250cc now, and ugggghhh, it is the most frustrating thing imaginable, especially in hot weather. I tried magnets, putting the kickstand down, cursing, prayer, and in the end waiting for someone else to show up, or making 3 freaking rights. 

I guess I'm going to build a microcontroller based detector and emitter, a lot like this one on eBay. I plan to open source mine, vs selling it. I'm pretty sure all this thing does is detect the frequency of the loop, and then pulse the same frequency to disrupt the original signal.

The first issue is, using an antenna calculator, and the specs on the eBay auction is that the antenna would need to be almost twice the width of my bike. 

Any RF hobbyists or engineers on here want to help out? 

Anyone else solve this issue by other means? 

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Try putting your sidestand down. It is a magnetic loop.

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Just now, carguy said:

Try putting your sidestand down. It is a magnetic loop.

Right on, I did mention that doesn't work, not happening, nada, zilch, sweat pouring down my back not gonna work...   :(  

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   How about a steel / iron electrical box cover?  Drop to deck and slide over sensor wire .  Better yet, a golf club iron. 

   

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I also have a WR250R and there's a sticky light on my way to work. After missing some cycles and doing the right turn-U turn maneuver a couple of times, I found that bouncing my full weight on the footpegs when I'm right over the detector circle can trip it. I think compressing the suspension helps by geting the engine and frame closer to the sensor. I could be way off base on that though.

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My KLR has trouble setting off sensors, even with a magnetic drain plug ?.  I will wait at least one full cycle then make the turn when all is clear. It is a violation to not turn left from a left turn lane. It is not a violation to proceed with caution when a light is inoperative (never turning green). 

 

 

 

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Would someone smarter than me(I know I know), please let me know if there is any thing on the books about when a light wont work. I have looked and don't see anything, being in the business I am in this is a big deal sometimes.

Thanks.

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14 hours ago, Hevers said:

My KLR has trouble setting off sensors, even with a magnetic drain plug ?.  I will wait at least one full cycle then make the turn when all is clear. It is a violation to not turn left from a left turn lane. It is not a violation to proceed with caution when a light is inoperative (never turning green). 

 

 

 

Obviously none of this post should be considered or used as advice on what to do in any situation. Thanks. 

I made some calls today. I was told this by a traffic supervisor cop (not my words). Going through a red light that is operational (for everyone else) is illegal and you'll get a ticket. If the traffic signal is off, as in no lights in any direction, only then is it legal to proceed. Stuck lights (even with cars) and lights that cycle too quickly are considered (by the police) to be operational and they will write tickets. The judge usually dismisses the case, unless you caused an accident, or did this in a reckless manner.

That's great and all but I really don't want to have to run red lights, and certainly don't have the time to get pulled over.  I had a hard time search for the actual written laws, but I don't think it matters. According to this it's the traffic engineer's problem:

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180SB672

I called the traffic engineering dept in San Diego and Vista. Civil Engineers were happy to answer questions. They said what everyone else says, magnets on the kickstand, with the kickstand down, at the edge of the loop. That's not a good solution for me, the only way that would work is to disable the ignition interlock on the kickstand. They offered to send someone out to the light at the end of my street. They just ripped up that intersection and added another lane so I would assume that the electronics are new and hopefully adjustable. 

They also said there's an app, "San Diego Get It Done." Any traffic signal that doesn't detect motorcycles should be reported. Especially left-turn pockets because they are newer loops, and are designed to detect bicycles. 

You can get a lot more detailed info here, specific to the intersection, but it's not updated often - http://www.dot.ca.gov/serp.html?q=inductive+loops&cx=001779225245372747843%3Auh1ozfcfcdu&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&nojs=1

And here - https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/operations/its/06108/02.cfm

I built my own loop (figure 2-5). I'm reading it with an inductance meter so we can draw some conclusions and maybe clear up some of the problem. A lot of these are obvious, some were not. 

1. The inductance changes the most with proximity.

2. The mass doesn't matter. 

3. The loop generates its own magnetic field. The side facing up will be north or south, if you're using a magnet, use two one with N down and one w/ S down. This could be why magnets work for some people and not for others.

4. The edge of the loop isn't much more sensitive than the middle.

5. I better get back to work, more later. 

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Is your bike electric start?

A 250 might not pull enough current to trigger the loop, but it has worked for me on my other bikes.  Stop the motor then use the E-start to refire.  The current going through the windings in the motor generates a field that interacts with the loop and triggers it.

I have a couple gate sensors at home to open the gate so I can leave my property, or so others without my remote can anyway.  My F-250 diesel will trigger the thing from like 40 ft away when I start it when the motor is cold :eek

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Good find on the DOT report.  Had a brief look at it and bookmarked it for later.  I'm an EE, but also have so much on my plate that I haven't been on the bike more than a couple times this year - and that's just to go get coffee :(

Would be a fun project if I had time.

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Thanks Daryl. Yeah I tried that, I think the main issue is that the starter isn't close enough to the traffic sensor. The WR250R doesn't fire right up when the engine it hot. I would imagine it cranks over enough times to require enough power to create a decent field. I think a lot of that field is attenuated by the metal case around it, the rest is gone from my ground clearance.  

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Just now, darylhunter said:

Good find on the DOT report.  Had a brief look at it and bookmarked it for later.  I'm an EE, but also have so much on my plate that I haven't been on the bike more than a couple times this year - and that's just to go get coffee :(

Would be a fun project if I had time.

Cool dude, I have a lot of hobby robotics experience. My race data logger is coming along nicely, maybe we can compare notes sometime. 

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Great post, keep us updated on what you find. I've been riding the Honda Grom lately, and have been pleasantly surprised with how well the light meters work with this little bike! I do think that the low ground clearance helps a lot.

Have you been putting the bike right over the meter, in the optimal spot? There is a picture somewhere... 

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Great post and any overview info you post along these lines will be fun to read.  Sitting through a cycle of a traffic light is a recipe for grumpy, especially on a hot day with ATGATT. Thanks.

I have a couple of lights that do not do as I wish when I commute to work on my moto a couple times a week.  I am embarrassed to say that I occasionally decide that the light is non-operational a little too quickly at times.  In particular, one light requires that I MUST approach the light in the left fourth of the lane as I approach the limit line or simply.... No go.  I almost always I remember this...  but on a drowsy morning, I will roll up in the center, and then curse my lack of awareness that I missed the "clicker".  In the diagrams in the prior links, it does appear that all sensors are centered in lanes, so don't know why this one is different.

Also, either logic or pretend logic, I sometimes rev my engine to increase electric current, magnetism, or Karma, or something........... haha, when I pass over a sensor, maybe because 30 years ago it seemed to work. Is that just silly?  I tried to translate the link info "The ferromagnetic effect increases loop inductance. However, vehicle-induced eddy currents decrease loop inductance even more. Therefore, net effect is decreased loop inductance when a vehicle passes through the detection zone of an inductive loop".   but.....

Thanks again. 

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Thanks guys. There's a little delay because I'm waiting for parts, I think I may have found a 100% legal super cheap solution.

Based on my research, the following statement is true, but not all of the time.

"The ferromagnetic effect increases loop inductance. However, vehicle-induced eddy currents decrease loop inductance even more. Therefore, net effect is decreased loop inductance when a vehicle passes through the detection zone of an inductive loop".

Ferromagnetic effect is metal containing iron in a magnetic field. Vehicle induced eddy currents will vary based on the orientation of the device (starter, solenoid, relay, etc) that produces the field. If the inductive loop is north side up, and you produce a north side down field, there won't be much effect. Another huge problem is that some sensors are south side up, so when your vehicle induced field works on one sensor, it's not always going to work on the other.

A wire loop works really well. The loop should be a single turn, and shorted where the wire's ends meet. The effect gets smaller with the loop. So if you were to put a wire loop on your bike, it may end up too large because the effect lessens as it gets further from the sensor. Ideally your loop would be the same size as the traffic sensor loop, and that's not gonna happen. 

Because there are way too many variables involved, and because the highway department isn't going to audit and fix every single sensor. I think the only solution is to carry some iron. Bikes have high ground clearance and very little iron. The thought of adding iron weight to my bike is not appealing, although I'm willing to bet an iron kickstand in the down position would be more than enough. 

Anyway, there's iron foil, just like tin foil, but iron. Pretty cool. I have some on order from China and it's going to be a couple of weeks before it gets here. My thought is to make boot inserts, a few layers thick would not be noticeable, and cheap enough to cover all of your footwear for a couple of bucks. This way the type, orientation and frequency of the traffic sensor doesn't matter. 

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1 hour ago, wr250rrrrr said:

" My thought is to make boot inserts, a few layers thick would not be noticeable, and cheap enough to cover all of your footwear for a couple of bucks. This way the type, orientation and frequency of the traffic sensor doesn't matter. "

That is very clever! :good:

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I had a hat like that, no that was tinfoil

:)

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13 hours ago, wr250rrrrr said:

The iron foil didn't make a difference :( 

 

Bummer...what's next?

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We are not one of the states, but it may happen.

 

PSA: Bikers Can Legally Run Red Lights In These States

Screenshot-at-Aug-18-22-25-28.png?x64800
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As many as 15 states in the country now have enacted laws that allow motorcyclists to run red lights. What this means is that motorcyclists in these states can now cross an intersection even when the light is red, and not be charged with anything.

Currently, Arkansas, Idaho, Illinois, Minnesota, Missouri, Nevada, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and Wisconsin have such laws. 4 years ago, Nebraska had also proposed a similar bill, but it hasn’t been enacted yet. The status is currently, “indefinitely postponed”.

It may sound bizarre to many readers how motorcyclists can be given such an exception, especially those not outside the US. However, there’s good reason for that. Most traffic lights in these states only go green for a particular lane only when a vehicle on it has been waiting to cross an intersection.

The system uses metal sensors to detect if a vehicle is waiting. However, these sensors are not always very sensitive. As a result, vehicles like motorcycles and bicycles are often not able to trigger these sensors due to the low volume of metal they have. Consequently, the riders are left with rather impractical options to cross such an intersection. Either they get off their vehicle and trip the pedestrian crosswalk button, or ask for cars to squeeze through their lane, or simply run the light.

These states recognized this plight of the riders, and officially made it legal to run such lights. However, most of these states have guidelines in place to prevent misuse. The riders are required to come to a complete stop at such lights, and then proceed into the intersection only when there’s no incoming traffic or pedestrians. Consequently, the liability in case of an accident at the intersection while a rider is running a red light has been shifted to the rider.

Run-Red-Light-2-650x1024.jpg?x64800

 

Here are the details about it:

  • Arkansas – In effect since 2005, state law allows a motorcyclist to proceed with caution, after coming to a full and complete stop, through a red light that fails to detect the bike. (Arkansas Code section 27-52-206)

  • Idaho – (2006) If a signal fails to operate after one cycle of the traffic light that a motorcyclist may proceed, using due caution and care, after coming to a full and complete stop at the intersection.  (Statute 49-802)

  • Illinois – (2012) Permits a driver of a motorcycles or bicycle facing a red light that fails to change within a reasonable period of time of not less than 120 seconds to proceed after yielding the right-of-way to any oncoming traffic. However, this law doesn’t apply to municipalities of over 2,000,000 people – such as Chicago. (625 ILCS 5/11-306)

  • Minnesota – (2002) A person operating a bicycle or motorcycle who runs a red light has an affirmative defense if the driver first came to a complete stop, the traffic light stayed red for an unreasonable amount of time and appeared not to detect the vehicle and no motor vehicles or people were approaching the street. (Statute 169.06)

  • Missouri – (2009) State law tells both motorcyclists and bicyclists that run red lights that they have an affirmative defense if they brought their vehicle to a complete stop, the light was red for an unreasonable time period, and there were no motor vehicle or person approaching.  (Statute 304.285)

  • Nevada – (2013) Those using motorcycles, bicycles, mopeds, and tri-mobiles are allowed to proceed through an intersection with a red light after waiting for two traffic light cycles, and they yield to other vehicle traffic or pedestrians. (Statute 484B.307)

  • North Carolina – (2007) Motorcyclists are permitted to move cautiously through a steady red light after coming to a complete stop and waiting a minimum of three minutes and if no other vehicle or pedestrians are approaching the intersection. (NCGS 20-158)

  • Oklahoma – (2010) Motorcycles can proceed cautiously through a steady red light intersection after a making a complete stop and if no other motor vehicle or person is approaching the roadway. (Statute 47-11-202)

  • South Carolina – (2008) After making a complete stop and waiting for a minimum of 120 seconds, the driver of a motorcycle, moped, or bicycle may treat a steady red light that doesn’t change as a stop sign and proceed with caution. (S.C. Code 56-5-970)

  • Tennessee – (2003) After coming to a complete stop, motorcyclists and bicyclists may proceed through a steady red light when it is safe to do so. (Tennessee Traffic Control Signals 55-8-110)

  • Virginia – (2011) Drivers of motorcycles, mopeds, and bicycles may move with caution through non-responsive red lights as long as they yield the right-of-way to others approaching the intersection, and have come to a complete stop for two complete light cycles or 120 seconds, whichever is shorter.(Statute 46-2-833)

  • Wisconsin – (2006) A motorcycle, moped or bicycle is permitted to run a steady red light after making a complete stop and waiting at least 45 seconds and then yields the right–of-way to any vehicular traffic or pedestrians using the intersection.  (Statute 346.37)

  • Washington – (2015) During the last legislative session, a new section was added to Chapter 46.61 RCW in Washington State that allows the operator of a street legal motorcycle to make a left turn, after stopping at an intersection that is controlled by a triggered traffic control signal, if the device fails to operate after one cycle of the traffic signal. (Amendment to Chapter 46.61 RCW)

  • Kentucky – (2015) Motorcyclists must come to a complete stop, wait for at least two minutes or two light cycles and make sure no other vehicles are crossing the intersection before proceeding. (HB 370)

  • Kansas – (2012) Motorcycles may proceed at a non-responsive red light when safe and after a reasonable amount of time. (KS Statutes, Chapter 8, Article 15, S

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