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tntmo

How KTM came to rule the off road scene

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I would bet that a majority of people in this group own or have owned KTM bikes.  This video is pretty interesting, showing how KTM came to be where they are today.  

 

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Thats the 4 strock story, Now the two strocker.

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8 minutes ago, Mr.JAJA said:

Thats the 4 strock story, Now the two strocker.

The four stroke is most of the two wheel off road scene now.  They are probably leading the remaining two stroke scene as well, I think Yamaha is the only Japanese 250 2T remaining?  

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It's regional really. The euro bikes seem to be super popular in SoCal but go to other parts of the country and people will tell you KTM is garbage and they would never ride a non-Japanese bike. After (regrettably) moving back to Texas, I get people giving me funny looks all the time when they see one of my KTMs. A lot people have never even heard of KTM out here. Heck, even the KTM dealership down here didn't even know what a 950 Adventure was when I went to the parts counter.

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16 hours ago, tntmo said:

The four stroke is most of the two wheel off road scene now.  They are probably leading the remaining two stroke scene as well, I think Yamaha is the only Japanese 250 2T remaining?  

Correct, Yamaha has never stopped producing 2 strokes and recently unveiled the YZ250X with wide ratio gearbox and 18” rear tire.
 

I have seen these in the off road and desert scene. Panthera Estart kits are available, 300 big bores are plentiful and of course, the new 500 kit is out there!

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17 hours ago, tntmo said:

The four stroke is most of the two wheel off road scene now.  They are probably leading the remaining two stroke scene as well, I think Yamaha is the only Japanese 250 2T remaining?  

Also while it’s no longer produced New, the KDX 200 & KDX 220 are so good and last such a long time that even the early 2000s models are still running!

Still highly capable trail machines today. 

@dirt dame @mufflerbearings @socalhodaka @dsfox

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1 hour ago, Goofy Footer said:

Also while it’s no longer produced New, the KDX 200 & KDX 220 are so good and last such a long time that even the early 2000s models are still running!

Still highly capable trail machines today. 

@dirt dame @mufflerbearings @socalhodaka @dsfox

I bought my 1886 KDX 200 C1 brand new in September of 1985.  Except for a brief time around 2008-2009, I owned and rode the bike until circumstances made it so that I could no longer keep it in 2023. That's a long relationship with a trail bike.  Until that time, in early days, it went on many trail adventures and enduros, including a qualifier in the state of Washington in 1990, in which I managed to bronze the vet class.  Later years saw the bike plated, and it never failed me on many dualsport rides such as those up in the San Bernardino mountains.  Long live Bentley The KDX.

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15 hours ago, TexasDualler said:

It's regional really. The euro bikes seem to be super popular in SoCal but go to other parts of the country and people will tell you KTM is garbage and they would never ride a non-Japanese bike. After (regrettably) moving back to Texas, I get people giving me funny looks all the time when they see one of my KTMs. A lot people have never even heard of KTM out here. Heck, even the KTM dealership down here didn't even know what a 950 Adventure was when I went to the parts counter.

But there have 4 legged Horses out there.

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KTM bought the rights/etc of Husaberg, promptly used their designs as an engineering base, a little flip a little flop here and there and bang out come the RFS models. Circa 1999/Y2K my friend bought one of the first (1999 400cc world enduro champion based machine) to arrive here in SD. I was on my 1998 KTM250EXC 2T  at that time. I test rode the 400 up in corral canyon , I was faster on my 250, but the time game changer was the estart on the RFS machine. Also of course the easy 400 power and low energy ease of use...and when you did stall it....a quick button press without even stopping and you were rolling. KTMs and other Euro racing enduro machines have traditionally been engineered for field expedient maintenance (ISDE fast work) which for me has always been a draw for me.

Its regional in the North East as well , it was always Husqvarna and KTM, mostly Husqvarna (Swede Huskys) back in the day.

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1 hour ago, robertaccio said:

KTM bought the rights/etc of Husaberg, promptly used their designs as an engineering base, a little flip a little flop here and there and bang out come the RFS models. Circa 1999/Y2K my friend bought one of the first (1999 400cc world enduro champion based machine) to arrive here in SD. I was on my 1998 KTM250EXC 2T  at that time. I test rode the 400 up in corral canyon , I was faster on my 250, but the time game changer was the estart on the RFS machine. Also of course the easy 400 power and low energy ease of use...and when you did stall it....a quick button press without even stopping and you were rolling. KTMs and other Euro racing enduro machines have traditionally been engineered for field expedient maintenance (ISDE fast work) which for me has always been a draw for me.

Its regional in the North East as well , it was always Husqvarna and KTM, mostly Husqvarna (Swede Huskys) back in the day.

Was KTM buying Husaberg their big entry into the 4 stroke world?

I don’t know that I’ve ever seen an older KTM 4 stroke than the late 90s - early 2000s LC4 rattle your cavity fillings out, left side kicker bikes

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KTM  first had Rotax 604 series 4 strokes , then their in house LC4 series.

With the purchase of Husaberg they tapped into the DNA tree of the generation of Husqvarna 4T engines from the 1980s of which the Husabergs had evolved from.

Edited by robertaccio

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19 minutes ago, robertaccio said:

They first had Rotax 604 series 4 strokes , then their in house LC4 series.

With the purchase of Husaberg they tapped into the DNA tree of the generation of Husqvarna 4T engines from the 1980s of which the Husabergs had evolved from.


wow ktm rotax, never knew about this.

8C909F59-C14A-47BD-ADF0-921BD6839E86.thumb.jpeg.5f1eb2e9697bcc7bac91d21b434a3cf3.jpeg

 

 

stealing motors since the 80s!  default_torch.gif  

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6 hours ago, dirt dame said:

I bought my 1886 KDX 200 C1 brand new in September of 1985.  Except for a brief time around 2008-2009, I owned and rode the bike until circumstances made it so that I could no longer keep it in 2023. That's a long relationship with a trail bike.  Until that time, in early days, it went on many trail adventures and enduros, including a qualifier in the state of Washington in 1990, in which I managed to bronze the vet class.  Later years saw the bike plated, and it never failed me on many dualsport rides such as those up in the San Bernardino mountains.  Long live Bentley The KDX.

Shite I know you are retired but hell an 1886 KDX200 ............ 

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The real winner for KTM is the steel blood of Stefan Pierer. He is the driving force of the entire corporation. Determined to show Euro (re)ability for motorsports dominance.

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I have a problem with our US centric logic. But this guy does give props to the brand guys who got the big 540SX going.  1993 Italian Husqvarna won the MXGP Championship with Husabergs and KTMs following the 4 stroke trend. I still maintain that Husqvarna (Varese Italian Husky brand) opened the door of the return of 4 strokes in MX. Everyone picks their own timeline for ground zero. So the last 4 stroke MXGP champ was the BSA B50 with Jeff Smith on board until Husky won in 93. Note MXGP had 400 YZ going as well.  To this day SX... as exciting as it is......to me is nothing compared to the grand courses of MX throughout the world.

Edited by robertaccio

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9 hours ago, robertaccio said:

 KTMs and other Euro racing enduro machines have traditionally been engineered for field expedient maintenance (ISDE fast work) which for me has always been a draw for me.

That was a huge draw for me as well. I absolutely love how easy it is to work on/take apart my KTM 300. I can practically take apart the whole bike with just the small tool roll that it came with.

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26 minutes ago, TexasDualler said:

That was a huge draw for me as well. I absolutely love how easy it is to work on/take apart my KTM 300. I can practically take apart the whole bike with just the small tool roll that it came with.

Don’t forget your 13mm! 

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5 hours ago, robertaccio said:

I have a problem with our US centric logic. But this guy does give props to the brand guys who got the big 540SX going.  1993 Italian Husqvarna won the MXGP Championship with Husabergs and KTMs following the 4 stroke trend. I still maintain that Husqvarna (Varese Italian Husky brand) opened the door of the return of 4 strokes in MX. Everyone picks their own timeline for ground zero. So the last 4 stroke MXGP champ was the BSA B50 with Jeff Smith on board until Husky won in 93. Note MXGP had 400 YZ going as well.  To this day SX... as exciting as it is......to me is nothing compared to the grand courses of MX throughout the world.

What year would you say sparked the modern Euro 4 stroke motocross wave?

1999 brought the Yamaha YZ400 to the US if I recall correctly

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13 minutes ago, Goofy Footer said:

What year would you say sparked the modern Euro 4 stroke motocross wave?

1999 brought the Yamaha YZ400 to the US if I recall correctly

1998 was the first year YZ400F

 

Edited by tntmo

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14 hours ago, Goofy Footer said:

What year would you say sparked the modern Euro 4 stroke motocross wave?

1999 brought the Yamaha YZ400 to the US if I recall correctly

Early 80s Husqvarna prototyping the 510, by the mid 80s they had the TE510 in world enduro comp and ISDE comp.  The Husky factory guys like engineer/racer Thomas Gustafsson were a year or 2 ahead of production bikes. For example top American LR at the 1985 ISDE Spain and Italian 1st in 4T class Andreini were on Aircooled single shock TE510s , which for US were 86 models. (Note I had the US model 1986 510TX cross country model single shock chassis with air/oil cooled engine)

In 1985 the Husky factory guys were on liquid cooled TE510s in that ISDE which turned to be 87/88 models for the production machines.

MX? I would need to look that up I think the focus was on Enduro at that early time. 

These Husqvarna engineered 4T bikes are the root of the family tree of all the single cam OHV 4 valve bikes that followed this path from the early 80s Husqvarna Sweden, Husaberg (same engineers) Sweden after Husky was sold to the Italians, Husqvarna Italy (with constant improvements), Vertemati, Italy based from Husaberg but gone wild with re-engineering and design. 

PS because of my interest in the initial design of the 510 series Air/ oil cooled,  no oil pump, 2T engine block based design.  I have studied this tree for years

Swede simplicity and functional engineering, very impressive thought process.  

Edited by robertaccio
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Interesting video. Admittedly, I don't get into the minutiae of models and other techy stuff, though I appreciate the vision and tenacity of builders and tweakers.

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PS that YZ400 was a terrible machine for me......I rode a first year model more than a few times in the off road environments  , that thing was first hard to start cold, pop stalled and virtually impossible to start hot.........a very frustrating horrible offroad bike for me.  I could start a Husky 610 easily hot or cold 1 or 2 kicks.  That Yamaha was a shitshow in that regard and really scarred me. If I was racing enduro I would smoke myself in times on the TE610 over that blue trashcan. Glad they sorted the things out as years passed, but then in typical Japanocentric logic made them concentrated heavy weighted tanks in the offroad models......yes they worked.. but hell they weighed a ton.

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5 minutes ago, robertaccio said:

PS that YZ400 was a terrible machine for me......I rode a first year model more than a few times in the off road environments  , that thing was first hard to start cold, pop stalled and virtually impossible to start hot.........a very frustrating horrible offroad bike for me.  I could start a Husky 610 easily hot or cold 1 or 2 kicks.  That Yamaha was a shitshow in that regard and really scarred me. If I was racing enduro I would smoke myself in times on the TE610 over that blue trashcan. Glad they sorted the things out as years passed, but then in typical Japanocentric logic made them concentrated heavy weighted tanks in the offroad models......yes they worked.. but hell they weighed a ton.

I had a 99 WR400F that seemed to be the exact opposite of everything you said.  It started 1-2 kicks cold, one kick when hot.  Never had the hot stall/flameout (my TE450 was terrible for that) and was a super reliable machine.  I got caught up in everyone else having electric start/FI bikes and got the Husky 450....it was a pretty good bike but had lots of annoying things about it that didn't work for me, even though I kept the bike several years and it never left me stranded.  Vibration, close ratio gearbox, oil leaking everywhere, at least it ran pretty good. 

I had a 2006 WR450F at the same time, it also was a great bike and was lighter than the Husky.  Not sure where your "weighed a ton" remark is coming from?  

Sure am glad the roots were laid down for all this current golden age of motorcycling we're living in.  The irony is not lost on me about our complaints about these amazing machines.  First world problems, indeed!  

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2 hours ago, tntmo said:

I had a 99 WR400F that seemed to be the exact opposite of everything you said.  It started 1-2 kicks cold, one kick when hot.  Never had the hot stall/flameout (my TE450 was terrible for that) and was a super reliable machine.  I got caught up in everyone else having electric start/FI bikes and got the Husky 450....it was a pretty good bike but had lots of annoying things about it that didn't work for me, even though I kept the bike several years and it never left me stranded.  Vibration, close ratio gearbox, oil leaking everywhere, at least it ran pretty good. 

I had a 2006 WR450F at the same time, it also was a great bike and was lighter than the Husky.  Not sure where your "weighed a ton" remark is coming from?  

Sure am glad the roots were laid down for all this current golden age of motorcycling we're living in.  The irony is not lost on me about our complaints about these amazing machines.  First world problems, indeed!  

Remember that 400 YAM was not mine....so I can't account for owner maintenance and tuning.

I love this stuff, because the TE450 (mine was 06 carbby model) took me alot of my dial in stuff and ended to be a good runner.

But then came my 2008 TXC450 FCR carb bike too which was far superior but with the continuing thing you mentioned VIBES big time !!   When I rebuilt we installed the 08 SM CB shaft assy. game changer. BTW the original TE world champ 400 engine in 03 as well as early TE models all had CB shafts. For some stupid reason ($$?) they lost them in the TC,TXC and TE models only the SM models kept the balancer shaft. My ex TXC450 is still alive and smooth as silk, the way the entire line up should have remained. BTWx2 All the SWMs have the CB shaft in them as designed originally under the Husky banner. Yes the FI on those injected Huskys was a bit of a nightmare for some reason (Mikuni FI) that was used on some Japanese machines with no issues...?? always odd to me,

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