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Clutch Me This

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While tinkering at @tntmo's garage we uncovered this.. I sent the pics to a couple friends and thought I'd share here as well. I have been having erratic clutch behavior. Friction plates measured perfectly in the middle of the wear range and steel plates looked great.

 

2012 WR450 5,000 off road miles 180ish total hours

 

 

 

-->  Run or Replace it? 

 

 

1477236756_WR450Clutch01.thumb.jpg.14b2dbb404433946024434dabd090da1.jpg

586745970_WR450Clutch02.thumb.jpg.369a5da29de0828b748d34206785bd96.jpg

449963355_WR450Clutch03.thumb.jpg.bd7759a209cbf976518ba08cf58c58bf.jpg

1038041370_WR450Clutch04.thumb.jpg.e3e228566741eb8d96ddb789933ed909.jpg

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The yamaha service manual calls for both basket and inner hub to be replaced at the same time. These appear to be cast aluminum pieces.

OEM pressure plate is $50

OEM inner hub is $80

OEM clutch basket is $275 which is in the ballpark of aftermarket options

 

Barnett Clutch Basket is billet with Stainless Steel inserts that can be replaced by Barnett for a marginal cost $25 is the last I read on other forums

1123347373_BarnettClutchBasket.jpg.dd26a537d84e440407be2728f385a0f5.jpg

 

GYTR is billet and Team Yamaha. They also sell billet inner hubs

488528036_GYTRClutchBasket.thumb.jpg.b27075f593462695547f6956416150be.jpg

 

 

Hinson has  "BilletProof" line with a special hardening. They sell all clutch components and sponsor many teams

899814421_HinsonBilletProofClutchBasket.thumb.jpg.ce48fdde794b21468391f59427e32109.jpg

 

Hinson "Momentum" steel clutch basket is an interesting option. Acts like a flywheel and counterbalancer with it's heavier weight.

1389501076_HinsonMomentumClutchBasket.thumb.jpg.dd1726d5917a14c4319e9b793720061c.jpg

 

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So many great technical options , that are all high quality items. 

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33 minutes ago, robertaccio said:

So many great technical options , that are all high quality items. 

Would you recommend replacing the basket?

 

 

 

Basket shows some minor wear but I’ve seen way worse Jagged baskets while researching my issue. I’d like to curb the erratic clutch behavior - hard shifting and occasional slip 

 

Leaning towards the Barnett or steel Hinson Momentum

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I don't think your clutch looks bad at all, although it   can be hard to tell by the pictures.  If the fingers on the basket still pretty smooth,  then that probably isn't the problem.  If they feel wavy, you can file them flat and see if that helps.

When you say erratic, do you mean occasional problem or disagreeable behavior all the time?   Hard shifting all the time, sometimes, or only when making a particular shift (like 2-3)?  I would be tempted to change the oil and maybe try something different, that is a cheap and quick test and I would do that first.                                                                    

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This part are fine, there is not enough wear to look the disc and not releasing  them.

I guess: erratic clutch behavior you mention is not separating or uneven gripping. Different oil will work Miracles. 

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Looks about like mine, I wouldn't think it's causing any issues. As others have suggested trying a different oil might be worth a shot, can you describe the clutch issues you're having? 

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17 hours ago, isde97 said:

I don't think your clutch looks bad at all, although it   can be hard to tell by the pictures.  If the fingers on the basket still pretty smooth,  then that probably isn't the problem.  If they feel wavy, you can file them flat and see if that helps.

When you say erratic, do you mean occasional problem or disagreeable behavior all the time?   Hard shifting all the time, sometimes, or only when making a particular shift (like 2-3)?  I would be tempted to change the oil and maybe try something different, that is a cheap and quick test and I would do that first.                                                                    

Thank you for the reply! 

 

I ran a screwdriver along the basket and could feel some ribbing but it wasn’t really jagged or anything. The basket waves can be felt with my finger slightly.

 

Shifting from 1st to 2nd has become increasingly hard. It feels as if I have to force the shift and I feel the the metal dogs/fork engaging. Maybe notchy is the term? Other gears are progressively less bothersome as I continue up in the gears but I can still feel 2nd to 3rd at times. Going into 4th or 5th is much smoother. I recall the shifting historically to be pretty smooth.

 

I have experienced one dramatic slip where I got back on the gas after a shift and no power went to the ground for a second then Bam, power hit. Last ride it felt like I hit a couple “false neutrals” between other gear shifts which in hindsight could have been other slipping.

 

While in gear around a corner or just manipulating the lever the clutch engagement feels good. My issues seem to be clutch when shifting. Seems to be trending downward some. I have 600 off road miles on the bike this year.

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16 hours ago, Mr.JAJA said:

This part are fine, there is not enough wear to look the disc and not releasing  them.

I guess: erratic clutch behavior you mention is not separating or uneven gripping. Different oil will work Miracles. 

Udo thank you for the reply and insight. I’m sure you’ve seen many clutch baskets over the years.

 

Different oil as in new Fresh oil or a different weight/brand?

 

I’m using Maxima 10w-40 synthetic which is largely considered to be great. Plus they are a local company

 

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13 hours ago, Wintyfresh said:

Looks about like mine, I wouldn't think it's causing any issues. As others have suggested trying a different oil might be worth a shot, can you describe the clutch issues you're having? 

 

Winty! Long time no talk I’m glad to hear from you. How is your WR? Let’s get a ride going!

 

I posted my shifting/clutch description above.

 

In order of least invasive to most invasive repairs I think this makes sense

Change oil

New cable

Different clutch perch/lever

Steel clutch basket

Check transmission?

 

 

 

In the end my clutch/shifting issue isn’t a Massive problem it’s an annoyance and seems to be increasing. I’m adjusting and playing with the cable mid ride and looking down at my shifting. I’d rather get back to buttery shifts and focus on the rocks I’m trying not to hit ha. 

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I never have these issues while running Rotella, just saying....

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 Use a light weight like W5- W30. Synthetic is fine with todays clutch material. We have used it from the late 70th.

How does it shift just on the center stand turning the wheel? The shifter drum (Coulisse) can

have some tight ,sharp corner spots. But this should wear with time. 

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2 hours ago, Goofy Footer said:

Winty! Long time no talk I’m glad to hear from you. How is your WR? Let’s get a ride going!

First off, I think your plan of attack sounds like a smart one. I might still have my stock clutch perch; if you find you need one let me know and I'll dig through my box of spares.

I'd love to get a ride in! My '12 is still going strong, I'm strongly considering converting it over to a Supermoto again. With CARB sounding like they're pulling the plug on the red sticker program (and eventually grandfathering all red sticker bikes to green sticker) I figured it was about time to pick up another bike. Originally I was considering a YZ450FX, but they were pretty hard to find and the '21 WR450F was only 6 lbs heavier. I figure the headlight and a South Dakota plate should make it pass at least cursory inspection on the trails outside of OHV/BLM land. 

2021wr450.jpg

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I am a good, but bad person to ask about what's good enough. For me any grooves on either side of the clutch housing are means for disqualification as far as troubleshooting and baselining the system. Yes I have hand filed a bunch of baskets in my life for a good enough job that works. But now I am all about upgrading or getting/baselining back to OEM condition, rather than doing the good enough acceptance , especially when chasing long term use components (read older higher hour) to perform properly ( at 100%). Yes they work but any plate tang groove is detrimental to smooth clutch operation. In addition all these little non-blueprint items can all add up to issues that have been compounded and created by a lot of small issues. And always remember stuff does wear out, even shift fork hard surface chrome, gear dogs and shift drums (edges get rounded). Also note materials differ , for example some bikes have alloy shift drums some have steel ones.

Best of luck, planning to keep the bike for longer term, I would upgrade and baseline, I would also consider using fluids types that the OEM specification calls out.

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2 hours ago, Wintyfresh said:

First off, I think your plan of attack sounds like a smart one. I might still have my stock clutch perch; if you find you need one let me know and I'll dig through my box of spares.

I'd love to get a ride in! My '12 is still going strong, I'm strongly considering converting it over to a Supermoto again. With CARB sounding like they're pulling the plug on the red sticker program (and eventually grandfathering all red sticker bikes to green sticker) I figured it was about time to pick up another bike. Originally I was considering a YZ450FX, but they were pretty hard to find and the '21 WR450F was only 6 lbs heavier. I figure the headlight and a South Dakota plate should make it pass at least cursory inspection on the trails outside of OHV/BLM land. 

2021wr450.jpg

Awesome looking 2021 I'm jealous! And, it has 6speeds!

 

What perch / lever are you running on your 2012 WR450F? I am running the stock one currently but see that people have been quite happy with the ProTaper set for easier pull.

 

I'm sure you've heard/seen it but Butterfield has changed a lot in recent years..

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3 hours ago, tntmo said:

I never have these issues while running Rotella, just saying....

i KNEW this was coming haha

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58 minutes ago, Goofy Footer said:

Awesome looking 2021 I'm jealous! And, it has 6speeds!

Still just five speeds, I'm sad to report. It's just the 250 that got the six speed. I run the ASV F1 Unbreakable shorty clutch lever & perch and haven't had any issues with it. Yeah, I've seen the changes to Butterfield but haven't really spent any time there since moving to Ramona (which space to store my trailer); we tend to camp Ocotillo Wells, Superstition, or the BLM land in between to ride our non-plated toys. I did spring for a stay at Blu-In last year and will say the place was clean and well-maintained; kind of a bummer tents are only allowed when accompanied by an RV tho. 

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From your description, I could easily believe bent or otherwise damaged shift fork.  A clutch issue should be present anytime you use the clutch and is going to be separate from shifting issues.  Unfortunately, inspection/repair is a engine out case splitting effort.  I would still try changing oil (including brand) first but recognize you are really crossing your fingers and hoping.

Once, I knew something was up with my transmission when it would occasionally not upshift, unless I downshifted first and then sometimes I could get it to upshift enough to get to the gear I wanted to be in.  When I pulled the shift shaft out, a piece of dog came out of the hole on the shifter side.  I remember thinking that that would explain it.

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baskets like that are a common issue on the big KTMs.

I have polished the fingers on mine when that happened and it pretty much cures clutch sticking issues for some time.

If you can feel the ridges with your fingernail but cant catch them with it is a very good candidate for polishing with just some oil and wet sandpaper.

Of course a steel plate will most likely solve that issue for you once and for all, the added weight might be a nice option as well.

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21 hours ago, Wintyfresh said:

Still just five speeds, I'm sad to report. It's just the 250 that got the six speed. I run the ASV F1 Unbreakable shorty clutch lever & perch and haven't had any issues with it. Yeah, I've seen the changes to Butterfield but haven't really spent any time there since moving to Ramona (which space to store my trailer); we tend to camp Ocotillo Wells, Superstition, or the BLM land in between to ride our non-plated toys. I did spring for a stay at Blu-In last year and will say the place was clean and well-maintained; kind of a bummer tents are only allowed when accompanied by an RV tho. 

I remember your place in Ramona, are you able to Trials there?  You have quite the BluCru, have you been to Cahuilla Vet MX track on them?

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20 hours ago, isde97 said:

From your description, I could easily believe bent or otherwise damaged shift fork.  A clutch issue should be present anytime you use the clutch and is going to be separate from shifting issues.  Unfortunately, inspection/repair is a engine out case splitting effort.  I would still try changing oil (including brand) first but recognize you are really crossing your fingers and hoping.

Once, I knew something was up with my transmission when it would occasionally not upshift, unless I downshifted first and then sometimes I could get it to upshift enough to get to the gear I wanted to be in.  When I pulled the shift shaft out, a piece of dog came out of the hole on the shifter side.  I remember thinking that that would explain it.

I'm really hoping it's Not a damaged shift fork because it's costly to split the cases. I cannot recall ever having a hard fall on the shifter side nor any reason to suspect damage to the shift fork. From what I've read the shift forks seem hidden inside the motor and somewhat protected on a smaller bike.

 

I've found some threads for shifting components under the Yamaha WR clutch basket that "may" cause similar issues to mine (but they appear worse). These parts are accessible without splitting the cases and the parts are inexpensive - $8 and $10 for example.

 

What bike were you on that damaged the forks?

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17 hours ago, DSM8 said:

baskets like that are a common issue on the big KTMs.

I have polished the fingers on mine when that happened and it pretty much cures clutch sticking issues for some time.

If you can feel the ridges with your fingernail but cant catch them with it is a very good candidate for polishing with just some oil and wet sandpaper.

Of course a steel plate will most likely solve that issue for you once and for all, the added weight might be a nice option as well.

 

I'm almost tempted to buy a steel basket just to see how the bike feels. It already has a flywheel weight compared to a YZ450 but still curious

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You are on the correct path regardless. just work your way in, biting off small pieces. I just went through that on my 2017 Husky 300. bottom end noise, if I was a race team first move would have been to pull engine and tear down for a full inspection and rebuild. Instead I worked my way in changing wear parts  and isolating potential noise items ( I completely disconnected my estart assy). Finally after doing all the outside stuff and still having noise...we pulled the engine and split the cases to find bad main bearings, visibly and tactilely. I took a bit of time but it got narrowed down with some rides in between. best of luck. And again if you plan on keeping for another long term get her bullet proof with good parts for peace of mind and no fear of trail breakdowns

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Here are some WR Transmission threads - not clutch threads. Seeing as many of you guys think the basket isn't That Bad, I did some more research. Splitting the cases is $$ so I'm going to go Least Invasive to More Invasive when it comes to repair work.

 

These parts are accessible behind the clutch basket and replacement is relatively inexpensive. These issues seem to involve the Detent Roller on the shifter mechanism. The first 2 threads are interesting. Seems plenty feasible to replace these parts if/when installing a new clutch basket.

 

https://www.dirtriderz.com/topic/16145-wr450-2009-gearbox-problems/

833803600_WR4502009DetentRoller01.thumb.jpg.c4c75c425c41af67d56b59e2bb8c54b6.jpg

 

..

..

..

 

https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/1082915-2012-wr450-shiftertransmission-issue/

1664989391_WR4502012ShifterIssue01.jpg.39ee8b5cfc237bee1f7ccd6cac9817f5.jpg

100566677_WR4502012ShifterIssue02.jpg.5c6e4af5d507fe3492d3719a655fcaff.jpg

 

..

..

..

 

https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/940699-notchy-wr450-shifting/

1091793274_WR4502006NotchyShifting01.jpg.1c225595b03713e2776ab8e0977b452d.jpg

1319627373_WR4502006NotchingShifting02.jpg.9239adbf08e78c294aebf604e39236f9.jpg

 

 

1383036005_WR4502006NotchyShifting03.jpg.2d33dd0694360a8093a0e1c5ef9dd9f9.jpg

 

 

 

 

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funny you mention that , that was a wear factor item I replaced on my 300 rebuild. So again working your way in.

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