Jump to content
Bagstr

Dear 450 XCW Motor - I am Sorry to have been so hard on you.

Recommended Posts

12 minutes ago, Bagstr said:

Full Rebuild cost ( splitting the cases ).  $3500 - $4500 depending on condition of gear-sets etc. That is the time to seriously think about selling machine and starting over. 

Yikes!

I was thinking about that yesterday (you know, while riding 100 miles in the desert) and I'm not sure I agree with you. The latest I've been reading about the latest bikes- fueling/tuning issues- for me, I'm not seeing any advantage to getting a later model bike.

What might I be overlooking?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only that technology may solve this issue. If not, I am with you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, paulmbowers said:

 

Well, other than the melted piston smearing itself on the cylinder.

"Inspect crank and bearings"- what exactly did they do there? They didn't split the cases, right?

Usually they can measure the axial play in the rod without splitting the cases. Crank bearings they probably just checked the "feel" during rotation and checked for any play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Running the Bike around the mountain, It Feels like there is plenty of Play available in the 450.

    👀

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Bagstr said:

No, did not split the cases. No idea of the details of inspection. " They were good."

Don't think I mentioned the conversation regarding Full Rebuild cost ( splitting the cases ).  $3500 - $4500 depending on condition of gear-sets etc. That is the time to seriously think about selling machine and starting over. 

Shhhhhhh, I think that I must have received a Paradise discount...SD Powerhouse went into the bottom end on mine, even replaced the complete crank assembly. All bearings replaced... a list of big ticket items... top through bottom; and I picked up the bike with $2800.00. Did you stay in the shop while they were working on your bike? I hear that the shop rate goes up if one does that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So bottom line is ride it for a few years then some summer freshen up the top end with a new piston ,rings , stem seals, and your good to go. Gee I can even do that myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, paulmbowers said:

Yikes!

I was thinking about that yesterday (you know, while riding 100 miles in the desert) and I'm not sure I agree with you. The latest I've been reading about the latest bikes- fueling/tuning issues- for me, I'm not seeing any advantage to getting a later model bike.

What might I be overlooking?

Yep. That and a lot of my buddies with the new bikes are not too keen on the Xplore forks. I'm in the same mindset. Going to keep my '14 going as long as feasable. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, kkug said:

So bottom line is ride it for a few years then some summer freshen up the top end with a new piston ,rings , stem seals, and your good to go. Gee I can even do that myself.

    Yep, That would be a safe choice.   Others have made them last longer.  How far from the pavement you ride may enter into the decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bagstr said:

  How far from the pavement you ride may enter into the decision.

Interesting point- I had a conversation with another engine builder this week- Allen Fox at Allen Fox Engine Works who may end up doing mine. He suggested the catastrophic piston smear is pretty rare- most failures are far more gradual.

Does it start well?
Make good power?

Ok, then, keep riding it.

I agree the failure in BFE is my worst scenario- and I've had that happen. There are pics around of me riding a KLR for my sins. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Air Box Oil

Now I am questioning if I ignored oil dripping out of the air filter box. A bit of a mess down to the kick stand spring. I wrote it off to excess No-Toil oil. And the intake tunnel was not “dry”.

It is possible I had a warning that I did not recognize .

The motor started instantly and idled . I think that is result of good valves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Bagstr said:

Air Box Oil

Now I am questioning if I ignored oil dripping out of the air filter box. A bit of a mess down to the kick stand spring. I wrote it off to excess No-Toil oil. And the intake tunnel was not “dry”.

It is possible I had a warning that I did not recognize .

The motor started instantly and idled . I think that is result of good valves.

Mmmm Bags that is a good posibilty-- something to keep a eye out for . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/19/2019 at 2:00 PM, Bagstr said:

Air Box Oil

Now I am questioning if I ignored oil dripping out of the air filter box. A bit of a mess down to the kick stand spring. I wrote it off to excess No-Toil oil. And the intake tunnel was not “dry”.

It is possible I had a warning that I did not recognize .

The motor started instantly and idled . I think that is result of good valves.

I have noticed A little oil in the bottom of the air filter boot when doing maintenance. Hmmm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To Wrap Up this discussion ( attempt )  :

Ask Mr. Piston -     We had such a good relationship, Why did you break-up?

A. We had been together too long, I just wore down.

B. That gas you fed me, made me throw-up

C. I left you notes, in the form of oil in the intake tube, You chose not to read them.

 

Remember that Tim Dunaway told me the piston would have passed inspection one hour before failure 

The gas was probably 3 months old.  What an idiot.  I now own a bottle of Sta-bil

The motor oil in the air filter box was definitely there at the failure. Subsequent Leak Down was Zero pressure. The top of the piston and the valves were very clean, so I am somewhat doubtful that the motor was really pushing oil into the intake before failure. I will definitely be checking this going forward.

Thanks to you all for your contributions to this discussion.  I am planning on the following the advice of a trusted public servant and " Getting Over It".

P.S. copying this last comment to the first post in hope that it may save someone reading all this. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/28/2019 at 10:23 AM, paulmbowers said:

I just checked.

 

342.4 hours

9932 miles

 

😧

@paulmbowers, @Bagstr, @Riggerdan, @PbdBlue & crew - I'm curious of any updates on hours and miles for your bikes should you still be running these steeds.

Bravo for putting in the hours!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/20/2019 at 7:52 PM, CVRick said:

I have noticed A little oil in the bottom of the air filter boot when doing maintenance. Hmmm

Signs of ring blow by

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Goofy Footer said:

@paulmbowers, @Bagstr, @Riggerdan, @PbdBlue & crew - I'm curious of any updates on hours and miles for your bikes should you still be running these steeds.

I believe I'm now at 600+ hours and 12,000+ miles. Bike is still far more capable than I.  No sign of wear- valves still in spec, no smoking (even on startup).

I believe I'll do one more top end (valves, piston/cylinder) before I dig into the bottom end, provided the limited inspection available with the cylinder off demonstrates the connecting rod and bearings are within spec.

But not anytime soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Currently hovering at 489hr and 13200 miles. New cylinder and match piston OEM. Tim said valves were good.  
Starts easy and idles quickly. Has all the power I need for the sand We ride. Controllable power at walking speeds in difficult conditions. Spins up quickly. Love the 450.

Regarding  the piston fail: Best guess is old gas running high rpm in long washes. I have never seen sand in my intake as I clean it often. That said, the bike is running every week in the sand during the season. So a lot of exposure. 

It is not a Ride to the trail bike. It is an excellent trail bike. Isn’t that what every owner would say of their choice?

     😎

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@paulmbowers & @Bagstr those are impressive stats.

Any other items you have replaced along the way?

-Clutch pack, wheel/steering/linkage bearings?


Props to you for Experiencing the sport we all enjoy.

 

 

@paulmbowers did you already to a preventative top end? RTWpaul has incredible hours on his bike - same motor as yours. His riding is more tame travel riding but the sheer distance is impressive. Eventual Stainless Steel valves seems like a good move for any high usage bike.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Goofy Footer said:

@paulmbowers & @Bagstr those are impressive stats.

Any other items you have replaced along the way?

-Clutch pack, wheel/steering/linkage bearings?

@paulmbowers did you already to a preventative top end? RTWpaul has incredible hours on his bike - same motor as yours. His riding is more tame travel riding but the sheer distance is impressive. Eventual Stainless Steel valves seems like a good move for any high usage bike.

Yes, lots.
I did the top end in 2020, shortly after Bag's experience. The list of maintenance items is long and detailed- yes clutch pack, clutch bumpers many times, wheel bearings a few times (and my original wheels need it again). Clutch master repair, clutch hose replacement- lots of little things since I bought the bike in 2014.

Chains, sprockets, chainguides, countershaft seals, etc- all get their share of attention and replacement.

I disagree with you about stainless valves.
Yes, on the earlier RFS motors one used stainless Kibblewhite valves, but not on these bikes. Valves are titanium and have a special coating which makes them extremely expensive, but catastrophic failures are rare- in fact, I've never heard of one. I replaced all of mine due to tiny pitting on the faces, but they had not changed in dimension- meaning the valves remain within adjustment spec damn near forever. LB tells me there are stainless valve kits available for these bikes, but primarily as a cost-saving measure. One must also change the valve springs when doing so.

On my top end, I used all KTM OEM parts, but my next one I'll send out the original cylinder for replating and have that shop match a high-quality aftermarket piston. Not sure I'll save a lot by doing so, but it's under consideration.

I've not replaced my swingarm bearings nor my steering head bearings. Forks and shock go to George every year or two for oil changes and seal replacements.

IMG_6481.jpeg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information