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Okay...A freezing cold six-pack of Pacifico goes to the winner:

   The "one best answer" that proves "definitively"  one way or the other,  that if the valve stem jam nut (that is provided with all new inner tubes) if used, will hide possible tube migration and that the tube's valve stem will split from the tube ending up in the dreaded flat tire scenario.  

   Hmmm?  Is this challenge possibly a what came first? the chicken or the egg situation? If one daring motorcyclist/mechanic snugs the valve jam nut to the rim, will it actually slow the progression of the tube from walking around the rim in the first place? Why do tube manufacturers add these jam nuts with the tube if no one recommends using them? Are they there just to keep the dust cap from vibrating off? If once the valve stem is secured to the rim would it actually stop tube migration altogether? Or will the valve stem depart from the rest of the tube as a general rule? 

  Did someone back in the Moto dark ages ride his bike 25 miles on a flat, take the tube out later and say "Hey, my tube busted at that valve thingy! I bet the tube would have been okay if only I didn't use that jam nut and I gave it to Skeeter to fix his kid's bike like he asked!" 

  Please note: any contestant answers such as: "Hey my dad and grandpa never tightened their inner tube jam nuts"  "So I don't either!" or "If you would just run 30psi your tubes they won't migrate!" will be immediately disqualified from participating in the contest. 

 This is a highly scientific, experimental, examination of Moto lore, and as such, there is an incredible responsibility and opportunity;  the possibility arrises of finally debunking a very long standing Moto Urban Legend. 

 All contestant answers will be put to a Rigger-Us challenge of being peer reviewed and third party reproduction in the Moto Labs of the Universal Church of Malcolm Smith and Roger Decoster. 

I'm Looking forward to all the expert science that will arise through this highly technical challenge!

With greatest respect to you and your Moto Wisdom,

The Lab Mule

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Well I don’t believe that keeping the jam nut off the tube prevents a flat, it does help identify that the tire/tube is/are slipping.  It makes it easy to see, so that you can say, “I will fix that next ride” and then you never do.

 

 I will pick up the beer tomorrow.

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Remembering that I am just a lowly pool guy who walks far behind the shadows of Malcom and Roger (perhaps I should say Mr. Smith and Mr. Decoster), I will attempt my explanation below:

You need to understand that the migration of compounding ingredients in rubber compounds before, during and after vulcanization is recognized as an important factor in the overall properties and performance of rubber articles containing a number of layers, such as tires or hoses. In certain cases, the migration of compounding ingredients can be beneficial since the effect of waxes and paraphenylenediamines as antioxidants are largely determined by the migration mechanism if they are to provide optimum protection against degradation by ozone on rubber products in service. In addition, the dispersion of compounding ingredients such as oil, curing agents and antioxidants (not to mention baby powder) in rubber can be enhanced by diffusion. In other cases, however, diffusion at the interface between two rubber materials (such as the rubber tube and metal rim) can be detrimental to performance by causing a change in the distribution of the individual materials which may result in a change in mechanical properties, a loss of adhesion or the action of antioxidants; the discoloration of light colored products is another familiar example.

From this we can surmise that it is not the nut, not the intensity of which it is snugged down or the installer themselves; it is 100% unequivocally due to the paraphenylenediamines.  These paraphenylenediamines run rampant in a still environment, and we know from previous discussions accelerate as speed and butt pucker situations increase.  I believe some of this was covered in a previous thread entitled "What tires should I run?", although I cannot locate it at this time.

Since I know that this is excruciatingly obvious, but that upon review I may not be deemed the winner, can you please let me know what the runner up prize(s) are?

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10 minutes ago, simicrintz said:

Remembering that I am just a lowly pool guy who walks far behind the shadows of Malcom and Roger (perhaps I should say Mr. Smith and Mr. Decoster), I will attempt my explanation below:

You need to understand that the migration of compounding ingredients in rubber compounds before, during and after vulcanization is recognized as an important factor in the overall properties and performance of rubber articles containing a number of layers, such as tires or hoses. In certain cases, the migration of compounding ingredients can be beneficial since the effect of waxes and paraphenylenediamines as antioxidants are largely determined by the migration mechanism if they are to provide optimum protection against degradation by ozone on rubber products in service. In addition, the dispersion of compounding ingredients such as oil, curing agents and antioxidants (not to mention baby powder) in rubber can be enhanced by diffusion. In other cases, however, diffusion at the interface between two rubber materials (such as the rubber tube and metal rim) can be detrimental to performance by causing a change in the distribution of the individual materials which may result in a change in mechanical properties, a loss of adhesion or the action of antioxidants; the discoloration of light colored products is another familiar example.

From this we can surmise that it is not the nut, not the intensity of which it is snugged down or the installer themselves; it is 100% unequivocally due to the paraphenylenediamines.  These paraphenylenediamines run rampant in a still environment, and we know from previous discussions accelerate as speed and butt pucker situations increase.  I believe some of this was covered in a previous thread entitled "What tires should I run?", although I cannot locate it at this time.

Since I know that this is excruciatingly obvious, but that upon review I may not be deemed the winner, can you please let me know what the runner up prize(s) are?

Bruce, you are in the lead so far! Your mastery in English verbiage is an incredible display at what it will take to have a cold Pacifico x6! 

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18 minutes ago, tntmo said:

Well I don’t believe that keeping the jam nut off the tube prevents a flat, it does help identify that the tire/tube is/are slipping.  It makes it easy to see, so that you can say, “I will fix that next ride” and then you never do.

 

 I will pick up the beer tomorrow.

Yes but would the tube slip if the jam nut was snugged? 

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1 hour ago, SoCalMule said:

Yes but would the tube slip if the jam nut was snugged? 

Schrödinger's cat.

  • Haha 1

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Ripped plenty of stems out while the jam nuts were tighten to the rim(one nut on the inside of the rim, the other on the outside). Then someone told me that you weren't suppose to do that. Both nuts go on the outside jammed together so that the stem is a little loose. About that same time I also came to the conclusion that my rim lock was slipping. So I went ham. Tossed  the single old rim lock and went dual rim locks. Tightened the piss out of the rim locks. Use plenty of baby powder on the tube and inside of tire. Tube grease would probably be better but too messy for my taste. Haven't ripped a stem out since. Usually go 7-8psi.

The real answer is go tubliss or moose. Personally don't like either. Can still get flats with tubliss and then you have to deal with the headache of trying to find the hole to plug. And mooses are way too much work to maintain and detrimental to pavement riding capabilities.  

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So how hot is it out there?  Hot enough to start to loose your sanity and start asking these " thoughtful" questions?  How about tube migration and not using the front brake.  That would be an interesting test for you. Say ride a few hundred miles sans front friction and see what happens.  Maybe you don't need the nut after all...paraphenylenediamines is just a function of tubal migration.

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This Important Issue is of course of paramount concern at this late date of the summer riding adjournment. Texas D makes good points, but alas he leaves out the most important issue.  Do you have the correct Rim Lock size installed on your expensive gear? You ask, " Are there different sized rim locks?."  Who knew. Yes there are, and if you don't want to be " That Guy " on the trail a long way from the cooler, I suggest you look into it.

In the end, if your tire rotates at a different rate from the wheel, There will be trouble.

       Bagstr     👨‍🎓

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54 minutes ago, Van said:

So how hot is it out there?  Hot enough to start to loose your sanity and start asking these " thoughtful" questions?  How about tube migration and not using the front brake.  That would be an interesting test for you. Say ride a few hundred miles sans front friction and see what happens.  Maybe you don't need the nut after all...paraphenylenediamines is just a function of tubal migration.

What about riding fast, no front brake may be used; would the ground contact patch be enough to slip the tube Tube migration) sans the jam-nut? We need good science here! Man it's still hot in Borrego. I think I need some more water. 

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4 minutes ago, Bagstr said:

This Important Issue is of course of paramount concern at this late date of the summer riding adjournment. Texas D makes good points, but alas he leaves out the most important issue.  Do you have the correct Rim Lock size installed on your expensive gear? You ask, " Are there different sized rim locks?."  Who knew. Yes there are, and if you don't want to be " That Guy " on the trail a long way from the cooler, I suggest you look into it.

In the end, if your tire rotates at a different rate from the wheel, There will be trouble.

       Bagstr     👨‍🎓

Tire tube migration challenge amendment #1

Amendment #! All Scientific Testing will utilize the proper and or correct size rimrock for said experiment.  

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1 hour ago, TexasDualler said:

Ripped plenty of stems out while the jam nuts were tighten to the rim(one nut on the inside of the rim, the other on the outside). Then someone told me that you weren't suppose to do that. Both nuts go on the outside jammed together so that the stem is a little loose. About that same time I also came to the conclusion that my rim lock was slipping. So I went ham. Tossed  the single old rim lock and went dual rim locks. Tightened the piss out of the rim locks. Use plenty of baby powder on the tube and inside of tire. Tube grease would probably be better but too messy for my taste. Haven't ripped a stem out since. Usually go 7-8psi.

The real answer is go tubliss or moose. Personally don't like either. Can still get flats with tubliss and then you have to deal with the headache of trying to find the hole to plug. And mooses are way too much work to maintain and detrimental to pavement riding capabilities.  

Okay, so it seems that we need to get the horse back in front of the cart in this scenario. The rim lock in this version of the experiment had culpability in the tube migration testing procedure results. With the proper rim lock installed and properly torqued to specification, would the tube have separated itself from the valve stem through migration? Also, was there any hard front brake use in this test? 

Changing a tire with one rim lock is very nice! Two of them would make tire replacement much easier! 

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Guess I should have clarified that I was referring to my rear tire. Have never had any issues with the front migrating. This is indicative of my tendency to twist the throttle vice grabbing fistfuls of brake. Rest assured I had the correct size rim lock from the beginning. It was in fact the factory installed rim lock from KTM, which is primarily constructed of rubber. The rubber had broken down over years of abuse. The Motion Pro rim locks I replace it with are made of a hard plastic with some very grippy notches on the tire bead contact area.

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I must confess that a goodly portion of my reply was cut and paste (with a few changes to avoid a plagiarism lawsuit!).  When ice cold beer is dangled in front of me I may have to resort to cheating!

I have had more flats on the front tire than the rear.  I tend to play with the front brake a lot, to the point of getting in a "stoppie" position sometimes (too scared to do one, but mash the front brake pretty good coming to a stop on occasions).  Since I have stopped doing this I have not had a flat (but you all know how little I get to ride so not sure this is saying a whole lot).

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If you were a truly balanced rider with your karma and paraphenylendiamines in true harmony wouldn't the throttle twisting and subsequent brake abuse balance out?

Hmmmmmm.

Just take some self tapping screws and install thru the side of the rim just far enough to grab the bead of the tire. :)

Hey it worked in the 3 wheeler days when you pumped the motor way up with a 105 kit and ran 1.8 lbs of air in the rears and rode like a wild man in the dunes. 

I'll take Alpine Duet beer, thanks.

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1 hour ago, Uncle Champ said:

Just take some self tapping screws and install thru the side of the rim just far enough to grab the bead of the tire. :)  Hey it worked in the 3 wheeler days when you pumped the motor way up with a 105 kit and ran 1.8 lbs of air in the rears and rode like a wild man in the dunes. 

I remember those days as well!  We must have been going at least 30 miles an hour flat out (down Oldsmobile-wait; we couldn't make it UP Oldsmobile!) with those big bore kits 🤣

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Have the test team considered ;  Lunar Magnetic Theory?

There is a line of thought that there is a Rubber Magnetism center emanating from the earth's moon. Depending of the position of the moon in the sky at the time of the experiment a major inner tube re-alignment can take place. An under appreciated phenomenon.

I learned this from KKug.

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19 hours ago, simicrintz said:

I must confess that a goodly portion of my reply was cut and paste (with a few changes to avoid a plagiarism lawsuit!).  When ice cold beer is dangled in front of me I may have to resort to cheating!

I have had more flats on the front tire than the rear.  I tend to play with the front brake a lot, to the point of getting in a "stoppie" position sometimes (too scared to do one, but mash the front brake pretty good coming to a stop on occasions).  Since I have stopped doing this I have not had a flat (but you all know how little I get to ride so not sure this is saying a whole lot).

Mr. Smith was the deciding vote to allow you to continue participating in the challenge; only because you owned up to you grieves error.

  • Haha 1

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I really am a dumb pool guy, Mark!  I did learn to use Google a while back to give the impression that I am well versed and a man of culture.....

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Oracle fixing a tube migration issue on the trail in Kennedy Meadows two days ago....my nuts were loose...

Image may contain: 1 person, motorcycle, outdoor and nature

  • Confused 1

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7 minutes ago, Oracle said:

 

Oracle fixing a tube migration issue on the trail in Kennedy Meadows two days ago....my nuts were loose...

Image may contain: 1 person, motorcycle, outdoor and nature

Well this just messes up everything now...

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