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paulmbowers

XC4 fuel pumps- what I've discovered

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It  might be my imagination but I noticed a difference in the pitch of my fuel pump recently that raised my concern and then this happened to PMB. I think I'll put together a pressure gauge just to see where it's at currently.

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I've got an HPF pump in my back pack. I guess i now have a new fishing weight. 

Thanks for sharing all this Paul. Good stuff! 

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5 minutes ago, amgems said:

The rare failures get alot of attention. 

Indeed- it certainly got my attention and- the part I dislike the most- disintegrated an otherwise enjoyable ride for my buddies that day.

And here's the thing- there's no limping back, no cobbled-together field repair. It's just shut down.

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I think the HPF pump is ok for a spare. Just don't use the supplied screen and perhaps look into getting the proper hose. As for having it in your backpack I don't think it's something easily done on the trail since your first have to empty the gas tank to do it. Moral of the story - do your maintenance and carry a tow strap.

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Now you've got me thinking of replacing the pump in my 3 gal tank thatt I use for longer rides with a new OEM and putting the old one in the stock 2 gal tank that's sitting in the garage. The bike is a lot of fun to ride with that 2 gal tank and with a complete pump installed it should be about 10 minutes to swap back and forth. Paul - what's your experience with swapping complete tanks?

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9 minutes ago, PbdBlue said:

I think the HPF pump is ok for a spare. Just don't use the supplied screen and perhaps look into getting the proper hose. As for having it in your backpack I don't think it's something easily done on the trail since your first have to empty the gas tank to do it. Moral of the story - do your maintenance and carry a tow strap.

I figured, depending on the last fill up, the contents of one's tank could be distributed among other riders, repair complete, then add the fuel back. I thought maybe one could just turn the tank upside down and plug the hole in the cap, but it's difficult to reinstall the guts without turning the tank right side up again. So yes, the tank needs to be empty.

The difficulty using the factory screen/flange is removing the existing star retaining washer. You'll destroy it in the process- they don't like to come off- I had to clip mine with small dykes. HPF does not provide another star retaining washer in what appears to be the 500EXC setup. I was able to swipe it out of one of the filters they include for other applications and "make it work".

One could use the hose they provide, just add loop to it- it probably won't kink.

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10 minutes ago, PbdBlue said:

Paul - what's your experience with swapping complete tanks?

I have three tanks, a 3, a 4.x and a 5.x complete with pumps- it takes 9 minutes to swap at a leisurely pace. That's how I field tested/diagnosed the problem- I put on Homer's tank. Took just a few minutes.

I'll likely eliminate the 4.x from my lineup at this point until I can find another stock pump system.

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3 minutes ago, paulmbowers said:

I figured, depending on the last fill up, the contents of one's tank could be distributed among other riders, repair complete, then add the fuel back. I thought maybe one could just turn the tank upside down and plug the hole in the cap, but it's difficult to reinstall the guts without turning the tank right side up again.

The difficulty using the factory screen/flange is removing the existing star retaining washer. You'll destroy it in the process- they don't like to come off- I had to clip mine with small dykes. HPF does not provide another star retaining washer in what appears to be the 500EXC setup. I was able to swipe it out of one of the filters they include for other applications and "make it work".

One could use the hose they provide, just add loop to it- it probably won't kink.

That's weird because both  my Kemso KTM spare kit and the HPF pump I bought for my SXS came with new star washers. You can buy spares from CA Cycle.

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1 hour ago, Bagstr said:

To Review:

The new bikes come from the factory with split filters.

The replacement parts are irregular

Confidence in the system is Low

We use this machine in extremely remote areas.

            👀 - 👀   🕵️‍♂️

Yeah when the fuel pump quit on my SXS it was a real eye opener. Same experience as Paul. Running normally and then suddenly just went south. Had to be towed 20 miles from BFE in the Kofa Preserve. Thank God we were with another SXS. Luckily the SXS pump comes out of the top of the tank like most cars do these days so a field repair is relatively doable with the right parts and tools. I now carry a spare pump and a spanner wrench to remove the pump. On the bike it's not quite that easy.

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3 minutes ago, PbdBlue said:

Had to be towed 20 miles from BFE in the Kofa Preserve. Thank God we were with another SXS. 

Talk about undignified! I was embarrassed to be towed a couple miles to the highway. But in a SxS being towed by a SxS?

I hope you wore a mask....

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9 minutes ago, paulmbowers said:

Talk about undignified! I was embarrassed to be towed a couple miles to the highway. But in a SxS being towed by a SxS?

I hope you wore a mask....

It was a lot of fun...NOT.

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Jeff Slaven's doesn't think the clip needs to be installed because the assembly is compressed by outside nut.

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Hilarious- I wish I had this before I started, but I did it exactly as shown, with the same issues he's having- especially about the snap fingers on the housing- I'll worry about those for a long time. I might try to use a zip tie lengthwise to keep it together. 

There's a mistake here- under the star retainer there's a little tiny plastic spacer- you can see it when he tries to remove the white flange, but can't because the star retainer scars the shaft on which it's mounted. The camera cuts for a moment, then you can see he's installed the star retainer WITHOUT the tiny plastic spacer it's supposed to have. And yes, I used the socket technique to install the star retainer. And the hook/pick to remove the star retainer. And a tiny pair of dykes to cut the star retainer to make it a little easier to remove it.

And- he does not replace the fuel strainer! He doesn't even clean it with Berryman's- that surprised me. The corrugated tubing is a great addition to the kit, and helps the process because you can destroy the factory section.

Other than that, this is very close to what I did.

Edited by paulmbowers
clarity and spellink

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50 minutes ago, Bagstr said:

Jeff Slaven's doesn't think the clip needs to be installed because the assembly is compressed by outside nut.

Yeah, I heard him say that- and he's wrong. He was not thinking it through at that point in the video.

The pump housing (hoses, finger-clips, outlet fittings) is long, and the pump itself is short(er). The pump assembly requires the strainer assembly to keep the pump stable within the housing. The strainer attaches to the white flangy-thing that's retained by the evil star retainer.

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Ok, I built a fuel pressure gauge setup, which may or may not have been based on an idea represented here by another member.

I have three tanks, one of which is now sporting the HPF pump, the other two stock KTM. I connected the metering rig in series with the fuel connector, and started the bike.

 

Tank1: 51 lbs or about 3.5 BAR
Tank 2: 51 lbs or about 3.5 BAR

Tank 3: 41 lbs or about 2.75 BAR

Can you guess which of these pumps is not like the other?


My solution as soon as my latest client pays their bill- $299.95:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-KTM-Fuel-Pump-250EXCF-350EXCF-450EXC-500EXC-NEW-78107088300/173885097528?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D212b77e4deb144a2bc4c6c9927e41d8f%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D323640308277%26itm%3D173885097528&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A9ca6ec42-832e-11e9-9210-74dbd180dd14|parentrq%3A0af8736f16b0aa66939be360ffa54d37|iid%3A1

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1 minute ago, paulmbowers said:

Ok, I built a fuel pressure setup, which may or may not have been based on an idea represented here by another member.

I have three tanks, one of which is now sporting the HPF pump, the other two stock KTM. I connected the metering rig in series with the fuel connector, and started the bike.

 

Tank1: 51 lbs or about 3.5 BAR
Tank 2: 51 lbs or about 3.5 BAR

Tank 3: 41 lbs or about 2.75 BAR

Can you guess which of these pumps is not like the other?


My solution as soon as my latest client pays their bill- $299.95:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-KTM-Fuel-Pump-250EXCF-350EXCF-450EXC-500EXC-NEW-78107088300/173885097528?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D212b77e4deb144a2bc4c6c9927e41d8f%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D323640308277%26itm%3D173885097528&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A9ca6ec42-832e-11e9-9210-74dbd180dd14|parentrq%3A0af8736f16b0aa66939be360ffa54d37|iid%3A1

Good info. I wonder if the regulator in tank 3 could be bad?

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1 minute ago, PbdBlue said:

Good info. I wonder if the regulator in tank 3 could be bad?

If so, all the more reason to go stock. Regulator is brand new, just replaced yesterday.

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1 minute ago, paulmbowers said:

If so, all the more reason to go stock. Regulator is brand new, just replaced yesterday.

HPF regulator?

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Just now, PbdBlue said:

HPF regulator?

Yup.

At least one supplied by them.

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Hey! It's gets interestinger now- just got a call from Ryan, nice guy at HBF. Good guy, he was trying to help out, but I explained that door had closed. I did explain to him about the fuel strainer not fitting, and he was well aware of it, and had spend a few hours "getting his ass chewed out by other customers" because of the problem. He was able to describe the issue to me without my participation.

So they know about it.

I filed for a refund from Amazon- fuel-soaked items should make it interesting returning to an Amazon locker. I hope they don't call the cops.

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You guys seem to be on this pretty good. I’m sure you already know about this filter but just Incase not. 

 

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14 minutes ago, socalhodaka said:

You guys seem to be on this pretty good. I’m sure you already know about this filter but just Incase not. 

 

Yup.

"Out of Stock" as well as their rebuild kit, according to their website.

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1 hour ago, socalhodaka said:

You guys seem to be on this pretty good. I’m sure you already know about this filter but just Incase not. 

 

I've seen it but not sure I like it. The filter is only supported by the attached hoses and that filter is probably much heavier. Not sure I like the idea of it banging around inside the tank. The guy who owns KTMandHUSKY is a controversial character. Some love his stuff and others are not believers. Let's just say I'm somewhere in the middle.

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1 hour ago, paulmbowers said:

Yup.

"Out of Stock" as well as their rebuild kit, according to their website.

Their rebuild kit is the same one Slavens sells - CA Cycle.

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18 hours ago, paulmbowers said:

I had to clip mine with small dykes.

Hey...

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