Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 17, 2015 I hate electrical issues. Or should I say Hate electrical issues. I was having these symptoms on a WR450, I swapped a new battery into it and the symptoms persist. (The old battery was reading low on the multimeter when attempting to start the bike so it probably needed to go anyways). What gives! Of course, I broke my own rule and this bike has a Baja Designs dualsport kit on it - which I cannot stand. I love BD's lights but have had issues with their old dualsport kit's in the past. I hope to bypass this one asap. I have a multimeter and limited electrical skills. I'd like to get this bike up and running so I can Ride! -- What could this be? The bike doesn't want to kickstart much either. I was able to bumpstart it once - and it was a huge pain in the arse. It took multiple attempts walking up a steeep hill and bumpstarting it. It finally took off and the bike runs fine once it's been started. A few weeks back I was lucky and got it to kickstart and it rode like a monster (wide open pipe with open airbox) powah. -- I just want to Ride! . . All this new technology, new bikes etc and I'm reminded of the fact that some of my favorite times riding were with half busted equipment just winging it and winning: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 17, 2015 More info on the bike 2007 WR450 - carburetor No key switch Push button "bike on" and then factory ignition temporary start button (stock Yamaha) Baja Designs Dualsport Kit replaces the stock Kill Switch No obvious frayed wires BD kit fuse is good Stock fuses are good No obvious bad connections (from the few I've checked) New Yuasa battery Previous Owner says he rode it to work 1-2x a month recently but rode it to work over summer more often. He says the battery went bad lately and it would be a pain to kick start. Once started, the bike runs like a bat out of hell. It's just Getting The Dang Thing Started that is the issue.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DustOff 0 Posted October 17, 2015 I had the similar issues on my 2005 525 KTM. Once it was started it ran fine, but now I know the kick starter works!!! I think that was the first time I had to use it. It has the aftermarket key and also has the Baja designs in Enduro kit on it. I tried swapping out the old battery, tinkered with it a little bit, got frustrated by the electrical gremlins, then took it up to All-American KTM. They diagnosed it as a faulty regulator. Back up and running now. Just my 2 cents worth. Good luck. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hodnettjj 0 Posted October 17, 2015 It's like Death Valley all over again.... Fuel, Air, Spark... It isn't getting one of these things... or one is improperly regulated... I'm surprised to see that you can't just hold the starter button and it continue to turn the starter... It almost seems like the switch or a dead spot on the starter. Wish I was still just up the street and could head right over... Ahhh the good 'ol days.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PbdBlue 46 Posted October 17, 2015 WR's are unique animals. Has the stator been modified? If it's a BD kit then most likely it has. In stock form the bike has two stator coils - one that runs the headlight (AC) and one that charges the battery (DC). Baja Designs rewires the stators into one floated output to run everything. It goes through a DC reg\rectifier. Once modified the bike will not run without 12 volts DC so if the stator is failing and the battery is weak the bike will not run. Probably not your current problem but something to be aware of. It might be worthwhile to check the stator. Here's an exerpt from the BD manual on how to check the mod'd stator. "The modification is now complete. Before reinstalling the stator you can check your work by verifying with an Ohmmeter that the yellow and white wires from the stator have continuity only with each other and not with the metal body of the stator. There should be very low resistance (approximately .5 Ohm) between the yellow and white wires. If it looks good, go ahead and reinstall the stator onto the motorcycle." BTW - I agree. BD DS kits suck! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CVRick 42 Posted October 18, 2015 More info on the bike 2007 WR450 - carburetor No key switch Push button "bike on" and then factory ignition temporary start button (stock Yamaha) Baja Designs Dualsport Kit replaces the stock Kill Switch No obvious frayed wires BD kit fuse is good Stock fuses are good No obvious bad connections (from the few I've checked) New Yuasa battery Previous Owner says he rode it to work 1-2x a month recently but rode it to work over summer more often. He says the battery went bad lately and it would be a pain to kick start. Once started, the bike runs like a bat out of hell. It's just Getting The Dang Thing Started that is the issue.. i have no clue on your starting problems. Sucks. My old XR 400 was the same way,but kicker only. Once it started it was almost alway perfect.Good luck. My brother recently got the same bike. Not sure of the year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reximus 10 Posted October 18, 2015 Tim if it runs fine but is hard to start, have you checked valves? Maybe intake too loose, runs fine when warmed because valve tolerances shrink when hot. Can you kick start it after its warm? How about disconnecting everything but the cdi and spark plug. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vacman 0 Posted October 18, 2015 It won't turn over even with decomp lever pushed, right? Definitely electrical. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 18, 2015 DustOff - Baja Designs had a bad batch of regulators a few years back which caused issues on some of their dualsport kitted bikes. iirc I had to replace my regulator twice on the DRZ due to a poor quality batch. HAPPY BIRTHDAY btw! Hodnetjj - Don't bring up the DV electrical fails! I am so averse electrical gremlins these days - if I cannot get this sorted out fast I may flip the bike and go for bone stock model. PbdBlue - This WR does have the BD stator mod and BD regulator. Once it's up and running I agree, it would be good to have them load tested (especially after my reply to DustOff above). My issue here is that the starter doesn't turn over. I'll try the "put the bike in gear and push it backwards to possibly 'unfreeze' the starter motor trick" and see if it changes anything. CVRick - I'll need that good luck! WRs are good bikes, I hope your brother loves his. Reximus - When I bought the bike it kickstarted on second kick - just my dumb luck.. Now I've only been able to get it to bumpstart once down a very steep hill and that took a few attempts. Once fired up it runs great. Wouldn't hurt to get a valve check though. Vacman - I think it's electrical too (which I Hate!). I'm going to try the "put the bike in gear and push it backwards to possibly 'unfreeze' the starter motor trick" to see if the starter motor may be stuck/frozen. Hodnetjj and I once bypassed a DRZ (not mine thankfully) starter relay and wired the starter direct to the battery to test the efficacy of the starter relay. I'm not so keen on doing that alone but it might be a worthwhile test in my situation.. Here is a video of me attempting to kickstart it last week: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 18, 2015 Update - the "unfreeze" the starter motor trick did not work. The still doesn't want to turn over the starter. The bike has an aftermarket clutch lever and perch (ASV) and a previous owner removed the clutch safety switch instead of looping it on itself to close the loop. This means the bike will only attempt to start in Neutral. That will need to be addressed but that is a secondary issue. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bp619 104 Posted October 18, 2015 From your Kickstart video looks like something is binging or stuck. Can you remove starter real quick and then try to kick start it. I had that problem on my ktm starter was not disengaging and once removed would kick right away Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulmbowers 236 Posted October 18, 2015 This may (or not) help- I once had a stator (a custom build by a local guy for KTM) that would not start with the starter motor, but would kick/bump start. The problem was the number of coils for the starter trigger had been reduced, thus reducing the available trigger voltage. Kick/bump starting spund the stator faster than the starter could, increasing the trigger voltage to provide sufficient current to start the bike. That typed, it sounds (based on the brief video and my complete dearth of experience with Yamahas) like something is binding/grinding. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bagstr 287 Posted October 19, 2015 You have a meter, Have you checked spec voltage and ohms? Valve gaps, spark. The best place to start is be certain of the ground reference. Clean and re-instal. Sorry if I missed this in the paragraphs. B Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reximus 10 Posted October 19, 2015 Update - the "unfreeze" the starter motor trick did not work. The still doesn't want to turn over the starter. The bike has an aftermarket clutch lever and perch (ASV) and a previous owner removed the clutch safety switch instead of looping it on itself to close the loop. This means the bike will only attempt to start in Neutral. That will need to be addressed but that is a secondary issue. Can you bypass the lame neutral switch, just to be sure? If its the same as the YZ you can either simply cut it, or pull the pin ouf ot he weatherpack connector under the tank.Would be good to check coils against spec ohms. After market stator? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 19, 2015 I know not what you speak of when you suggest I check for "ohms". May I suggest to you a quick Wiki Read on the Unrelated Homonym "Om" The bike should have a stock stator with the BD "rewind" to DC conversion that PbdBlue mentioned above. Now that I think of it.. I actually have another stock BD modified stator and BD regulator from an 08 WR450 in my garage too. Bp619 - I may try to remove the starter motor or at least take the cover off and post some pics. PaulMBowers - you're the second to mention binding/sticking so you guys may be onto something Bagstr - as far as spark goes, if the starter never turns.. over would I have spark? I honestly don't know. Reximus - My garage is a bit tight to work in currently. But I'm afraid my bike will get kicked over in your garage.. I'm hoping to start diagnosing the starting issue a bit more this week, somehow, some way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
350thumper 336 Posted October 19, 2015 Pull the spark plug? That way you know it ain't compression holding it back. Check spark while you do this. Someaftermarket stators don't produce much @ or below 150rpm(kickstarting speed) that's why the battery&bumpstart helps. Use a digital charger to check the battery amps. Check oil level also and condition. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 20, 2015 Changed the oil (it was dirty). Fresh Yamalube going in. The output shaft from the start motor does spin both ways Left and Right. Starter motor looks like a PITA to access because I need to pull the clutch arm thingy. I might save that for a pro. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PbdBlue 46 Posted October 20, 2015 If I recall I don't think you have to remove the clutch arm. Does the starter spin if you press the start lever? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 20, 2015 If I recall I don't think you have to remove the clutch arm. Does the starter spin if you press the start lever? I currently have the stator and side cover off (no oil in motor). Would I be crazy to hit the starter button without oil? I suppose only the starter motor would spin correct? In summation, if the starter motor output shaft spins when hitting the electric start button, that should tell me that the starter is working effectively! (I think?) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 20, 2015 It spins!This real time mechanical help is great. Thanks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 20, 2015 So just because the starter spins doesn't freely doesn't mean that it's not failing under load (ie with the flywheel, stator and engine behind it). Hmm This may be a simple question but where does power for the spark plug come from? Battery or off the stator power (which I assume spins once the starter motor is engaged or kickstarter is engaged)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hodnettjj 0 Posted October 20, 2015 Next step.... Check for spark... Put it back together. Pull the spark plug. Plug the spark plug in to the spark plug wire. Ground spark plug to metal surface on the bike. Turn bike over with start button and look for spark. ** note: you may get shocked if you do this incorrectly... or if you need new a new plug wire.** ***note note: it doesn't hurt for long*** The spark timing comes from the pick-up coils on the stator... in conjunction with the rotor. The actual spark should come from the CDI ignition box. **This feels like a certain starter troubleshooting evolution** I say things... and the reply is, "Whaaat?" Good Luck... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PbdBlue 46 Posted October 20, 2015 With the BD modified stator the spark comes from the 12 volt dc circuit. Trigger coil in the stator assembly provides the signal to fire but not the power. So just so I understand the starter turns the motor over but it doesn't fire or it doesn't turn the motor over? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 20, 2015 So just so I understand the starter turns the motor over but it doesn't fire or it doesn't turn the motor over? The first video shows what the starter motor was doing. Imho it seems as if the starter motor was not turning the engine over. Now after buttoning it back up, the starter motor just spins freely (like when I had the gears off). Maybe I put it back the stator side incorrectly but I've done this a handful of times on various bikes so I hope it's not my mechanical error but I'm not sure. I'll post a video soon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
