tntmo 887 Posted October 12, 2014 Teardown party was a success, except there was no cake. Cannoli was a viable alternate. I'll let Tim put up all the details and pictures. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
350thumper 336 Posted October 12, 2014 So was the piston rings half siezed into the piston? Im chompin at the bit here.. Is the timing chain tensioner half worn or no signs of wear? They get worn also.. Throw me a bone ....anything... ... Yur investment will come back in the form of many happy memories once its running again. Whats the culprit ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 12, 2014 Spend money on a cometic gasket set. The tusk gaskets are junk. I second that Tusk gaskets are junk. Learned that the hard way... Thanks for the heads up. Cometic or better gaskets for me! I have thd tusk case tools and a valve spring tool if u need to borrow. If I had less going on I would offer to help with the work. You can use a scotchbright pad on the cylinder also, hone is probably not necessary. I have a bore gauge also. Hit me up for tools... I'm interested in your bore gauge now that I have the stocky cylinder off. At this time I don't think I'll need the case tools but I might chage my mind ha. Thanks for the offer to use your tools, that's pretty awesome Brad! So was the piston rings half siezed into the piston? Im chompin at the bit here.. Is the timing chain tensioner half worn or no signs of wear? They get worn also.. Throw me a bone ....anything... ... Yur investment will come back in the form of many happy memories once its running again. Whats the culprit ? tntmo mentioned there was cannoli for desert. Few things beat chompin on some cannoli!! I'm uploading pics now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
350thumper 336 Posted October 12, 2014 Drum roll please.......... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 12, 2014 Big thanks to tntmo for letting me wrench in his garage. Shout out to Vacman who also helped me a ton in getting my dualsport kit wiring sorted. Without further delay, here are the pics of the TearDown Party! Once we removed the head I found this - seems like a lot of carbon buildup but I don't have much experience to which I can compare. Carbon-ey valves? What do you think? Hmm, why is the intake port so dirty? I doubt that is a good sign. Abnormal? Exhaust port and the header pipe showed signs of many miles on the road! It's not the easier thing to take pictures of the cylinder walls. Here is my attempt: I actually think the cylinder is in surprisingly decent condition. I want to spec it and see how it measures but there is still some crosshatching. Do note the vertical lines showing. The piston Hmm, look at those rings.. The rings were Stuck on the piston and one was quite difficult to remove That's some crud on my rings! To test the valve seal, we put some cleaner on the top of the valve. The intakes are leaking some - it could be crud on the valve face. Time to clean the head, install some new seals and possibly lap the stock steel valves. NoToil Air Filter Oil and Uni Air Filters DO NOT MIX. I'm not saying this was definitely my issue but I did notice the filter starting to come apart while cleaning and I could tear it like this. No cake, yet. But there was cannoli! Everything considered, stuck rings is our conclusion . The obvious question is what caused my rings to stick to the piston? {{and how can I and YOU prevent that from happening in the future}} Can stuck rings sound like piston slap in the motor? We joked about cleaning the rings and just reassemblying everything to see how she ran. It's a friggin DRZ, I bet it would have ran! Well, now I need to decide on rebuilding it to 400cc (if the stock cylinder is even reusable) or slapping the big bore 434 on it. The 434cc is the most reliable of the big bores by far but I'm hesitant to modify it too much, I bought a DRZ for it's reputation for being a reliable standout. I will keep near 12:1 compression which is stock for the E model. I'll install a new OEM timing chain while I'm in there because it the right thing to do (plus bikeslut is doing his too so I can learn from his install before I attempt mine!). Remembering some better times with the DRZ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
350thumper 336 Posted October 12, 2014 Had this bike run fuel purchaed from down in baja? The valve guides wear also.. (unoticably) That causes the valve to' lay over'while it wears ..and wears. And wears. (Evidence of this is found by seeing if the intake is leaking solvent thru one side,, under the intake valves ). The lapping of the valve is a temp fix. New valve guides and new seats and new seals at the head shop is a more permanent solution. They need to be pressed in. Your local shop will do all that.and lap the new seats . I can borrow you some valve lapping compound if you just gonna do it by hand..( ive got an awseome trick for that also... cuts labor (beer) time in half.. Your bore size at the bottom may be larger where the piston has to turn around and go back up.. that is where you will get a slap' Theoretically' and its difficult to detect with the human eye.. You may want to examine the tensioner. New one recomended even though you can get away with slappin it back in.. when that thing fails..its ugly. Was the wrist pin difficult to remove when you pushed it out or did it slide right out after removing the clips? And if you stick your finger in the air box boot, from the air box to the carb .. is there dirt or sand inside there? Ive got a huge parts washer if you need that too it cuts the prep time in half .. if you would like to use it dont hesitate to yell at me. Literally just throw yourwhole motor in there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tntmo 887 Posted October 12, 2014 The cylinder and piston look ok, but without measuring them there's no way to be sure. Those rings were really stuck! The piston wrist pin was fine. Get the head cleaned up, figure out the cylinder/piston and she's up and running Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
350thumper 336 Posted October 12, 2014 Sweet. ... awesome job guys! . braap Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 13, 2014 I dug up some posts from last summer about top end rebuilds. It's great to have such resources and talented wrenches on SDAR. It's funny reading my old replies in these threads - I'm still learning slooowly but I'm trying! http://dualsport-sd.com/forums/index.php?/topic/16278-summer-maintenance-offroad-bike/ http://dualsport-sd.com/forums/index.php?/topic/16008-top-end/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 13, 2014 Had this bike run fuel purchaed from down in baja? The valve guides wear also.. (unoticably) That causes the valve to' lay over'while it wears ..and wears. And wears. (Evidence of this is found by seeing if the intake is leaking solvent thru one side,, under the intake valves ). The lapping of the valve is a temp fix. New valve guides and new seats and new seals at the head shop is a more permanent solution. They need to be pressed in. Your local shop will do all that.and lap the new seats . I can borrow you some valve lapping compound if you just gonna do it by hand..( ive got an awseome trick for that also... cuts labor (beer) time in half.. Your bore size at the bottom may be larger where the piston has to turn around and go back up.. that is where you will get a slap' Theoretically' and its difficult to detect with the human eye.. You may want to examine the tensioner. New one recomended even though you can get away with slappin it back in.. when that thing fails..its ugly. Was the wrist pin difficult to remove when you pushed it out or did it slide right out after removing the clips? And if you stick your finger in the air box boot, from the air box to the carb .. is there dirt or sand inside there? Ive got a huge parts washer if you need that too it cuts the prep time in half .. if you would like to use it dont hesitate to yell at me. Literally just throw yourwhole motor in there. Hey Thumper, I'll try to answer all your questions. Thanks for asking - I appreciate the discussion. -Gas was purchased in Baja yes. I've used Baja gas before but I always get the Primo gas when possible. I did fill up from a Pemex on Day 1 but refilled with some Pemex/race gas blend from Baja Pits after Day 1. I don't think it was a gas issue. (Actually, I've heard that they don't have Ethanol in their gas but I cannot verify this??) -------------------- -The intake valves leaked a little. With the amount of crud on the actual rings and the intake port into the head, there could just be some crud on the vavles/seats? I know nothing about valve guides ha. I don't know how often they are replaced and I might leave that to the pro to decide. I've seen a few SDAR guys use a little bit of compound on the valves to make them flush to the valve seats. tntmo has the compound and I'm tempted to try that but I'd also be interested in seeing what a pro machine shop says about the top end. Valve seals are probably a good call, why not right. My understanding is that the stock DRZ upper valvetrain is pretty reliable. --I did notice that the Kibblewhite Spring Kit I listed above does not come with guides nor seals as per their website: http://valvetrain.kpmivalvetrain.com/category/suzuki-d-rz-400e-s-sm-br-lt-z400-400z-2000-to-2013 --OEM valve guides are $23 x 4 = $92. OEM valve seals are $4.50 x 4 = $18. EDIT: I tried googling DRZ valve guides and didn't find much. I read a quote from Eddie Sisneros, the once-popular-now-fallen-from-grace-drz-rebuilding-"god" that he had never seen a worn DRZ valve guide. ------------------- -I use a manual tensioner and will be replacing the timing chain with a fresh OEM one because I think it's a good idea. OEM cam chain is $70 ------------------- -I'll have to check the airbox boot but you can see by the pictures that the intake port on the head was dirty I like this video: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tntmo 887 Posted October 13, 2014 When I put Axel's KTM together, I drove up to Orange County to have the KTMtalk guru CAflash help me with a bit of it. He did the head work in his garage, pulled the valves, cut the valve seats with a few twists of the hand tool, cleaned up the valves on a wire wheel and reinstalled them. He said that he never changes valve seals. Seemed weird to me, but who am I to question the guy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
350thumper 336 Posted October 13, 2014 Checkin the air intake boot with your finger just tells you if dirt is being invited in thru the airbox... are you going one size over on the piston ? Or factory displacement ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 14, 2014 Checkin the air intake boot with your finger just tells you if dirt is being invited in thru the airbox... are you going one size over on the piston ? Or factory displacement ? I probably should throw the intake boot into a parts cleaner or at least pull it from the bike and blast it. Also, time to make my airbox spotless too! ---------- My understanding is that the DRZ has a nikasil plated cylinder and that the coating is extremely tough but very thin. I cannot simply go one size over like as was the custom on two strokes of yester-year. If the cylinder is round but too scored, I can have it replated (Millenium Technologies or PowerSeal USA) ~$200 and will keep the factory displacement with a 90mm bore. Piston kits are $160 and gaskets kits are $40. Now, if my stock cylinder measures in tolerance and can be reused (possibly with a diamond hone OR aluminum oxide flex-hone to "deglaze" the cylinder ---> I hear mixed things?), I could simply buy a new piston and run it. Any thoughts on this? With big bore DRZ434 kits around $430, it would cost me roughly the same to replate my stock cylinder + new piston as it would to buy a new aftermarket 94mm jug and piston. The 434 kits seem to be pretty reliable on the DRZ but the DRZ is a solid motor stock. Any piston/jug larger than 434 supposedly doesn't cool as effectively (cylinder walls are too close to the water jets) and you start to overpower the crank/bottom end. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted October 14, 2014 I have heard good things about Racer's Machine Inc in Escondido. Anbody have other recommendations/insight? http://racersmachineinc.homestead.com/index.html I might take my cylinder and piston up there to have them spec it. They can also rebuild cylinder heads which I might have them do but I'm really tempted to get a valve compressor and disassemble it for fun! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
350thumper 336 Posted October 14, 2014 I would. Hell ya...the more fun yu hav doing it, the more you can help the next guy when his bike goes kachunk.. Tech tip: remember to check the tension on your piston return spring.. Because the faster your pistin returns to the top.. the faster it can go back down again.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tntmo 887 Posted October 14, 2014 We're going to install a stronger piston return spring and one of the super trick purple power bands I got from a race team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
350thumper 336 Posted October 14, 2014 Micrometer your exhaust manifold bearings get them dialed in for speed and increased engine longevity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kato 53 Posted October 15, 2014 NoToil Air Filter Oil and Uni Air Filters DO NOT MIX. I'm not saying this was definitely my issue but I did notice the filter starting to come apart while cleaning and I could tear it like this. IMG_7079.jpg dino engine oil on my uni (about a big spoon or two in a plastic grocery bag to work the oil in the filter), oxiclean to clean it.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted November 23, 2014 NoToil Air Filter Oil and Uni Air Filters DO NOT MIX. I'm not saying this was definitely my issue but I did notice the filter starting to come apart while cleaning and I could tear it like this. IMG_7079.jpg A quick update on this topic, here is my WR250F air filter that I just removed for a cleaning. NoToil with Uni filter - I've been meaning to see what condition it was in and it seems that the NoToil ate the glue holding Uni's two stages? I've read about this online. I think it has to do with the alcohol in the NoToil. They apparently have a green NoToil Evolution which does not have alcohol. Here is the new NoToil filter and NoToil oil (aerosol red). I like this NoToil filter a lot more than the Uni, it seals better on the airbox cage and rim. I also like that it's white so I'll easily be able to see when it's dirty. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goofy Footer 539 Posted November 23, 2014 A big update on the progress of this project is coming soon. At this time I really want to thank tntmo for being a true wizard in the garage and Spaugh for loaning me tools to help disassemble my head and measure the cylinder. You guys are awesome! SDAR has some seriously great people. Rock On Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
