BillP 0 Posted May 4, 2014 My daughter camped near the mud caves at Tapiado, lit a fire in an existing rock fire ring and got a ticket for an illegal fire. She didn't know metal fire rings were required in the park. She just learned the fine is near $500. Anybody know if she appears in court (Vista) should she expect the fine to be more, less or same? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Czechsix 1 Posted May 4, 2014 Every time I've gone to court, and actually sat through it until called before the judge, I've received lessened fines. However, due to the games that are now being played, I wouldn't be at all shocked to hear the fine is lowered - yet she pays more than $500 due to administrative fees, prison support fees, overtime fees, paperwork fees, K9 neutering fees, BLM vehicle paint rework fees, Anza Borrego Park Headquarters glass cleaning surcharge, and on and on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHunter 15 Posted May 4, 2014 Bill - PM me the section number she was cited under. Does she have a Trial by Declaration option prior to court. A well researched and justified declaration can help. Does she have any pics from camping that show the fire ring? Either way, shoot me the section. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Riggerdan 147 Posted May 4, 2014 I seem to remember someone saying that the "washing machine core" was not acceptable in ABSP? any documentation to back that up? 500 is a lot of moola hope there's some kind of reduction in her future Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ADV Bum 205 Posted May 4, 2014 I seem to remember someone saying that the "washing machine core" was not acceptable in ABSP? any documentation to back that up? 500 is a lot of moola hope there's some kind of reduction in her future Why would the washing/ dryer drums not be acceptable? What is acceptable? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bikeslut 1 Posted May 4, 2014 The washing tub rings technically do not work, because the bottom is on the ground, and the holes on the bottom allow ash fall out- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tntmo 880 Posted May 4, 2014 Last time I was there, I used the washing machine tub but I have since heard that it's a no-no. Luckily I didn't get cited. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kato 53 Posted May 4, 2014 Right bob. I popped into abdsp visitor center to ask recently and they said anything that will allow to take ashes back with you is fine (i remember they said a turkey pan would work, or a (cut) metal trash can) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHunter 15 Posted May 4, 2014 http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/638/files/AnzaBorregoDesertPDF.pdf "Anza-Borrego Desert State Park is the largest state park in California. Five-hundred miles of dirt roads, 12 wilderness areas and miles of hiking trails provide visitors..." Nice that that there are established fire rings along the 500 miles of dirt roads. FIRES AND FIREWOOD: Please be cautious when building fires. Fires are allowed only in established fire rings or camp stoves. Do not build ground fires outside the fire rings or leave campfires unattended. Do not gather firewood in the park––the nutrients must be allowed to recycle back into the ecosystem. You may purchase firewood from the camp hosts. Bill - your daughter probably used one of these "established fire rings" she found in the back country. Nowhere on this information page does it say it has to be metal. I'm sure she probably read this information, found a ring and used it to obey the rules as outlined above. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wintyfresh 46 Posted May 4, 2014 For National Forests, National Parks, and BLM land it never hurts to have an up to date Campfire Permit. http://www.preventwildfireca.org/Campfire-Permit/ Having a valid one could inspire some leniency. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillP 0 Posted May 4, 2014 http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/638/files/AnzaBorregoDesertPDF.pdf "Anza-Borrego Desert State Park is the largest state park in California. Five-hundred miles of dirt roads, 12 wilderness areas and miles of hiking trails provide visitors..." Nice that that there are established fire rings along the 500 miles of dirt roads. FIRES AND FIREWOOD: Please be cautious when building fires. Fires are allowed only in established fire rings or camp stoves. Do not build ground fires outside the fire rings or leave campfires unattended. Do not gather firewood in the park––the nutrients must be allowed to recycle back into the ecosystem. You may purchase firewood from the camp hosts. Bill - your daughter probably used one of these "established fire rings" she found in the back country. Nowhere on this information page does it say it has to be metal. I'm sure she probably read this information, found a ring and used it to obey the rules as outlined above. Ken, Citation shows "Illegal Ground fire" and 4311. Here is what I found online for 4311: 4311. Fire in Stoves, Smoking. No person shall light, build, use, or maintain a fire within a unit except in a camp stove or fireplace provided, maintained, or designated for such purpose, unless by authority of the Department. Portable camp stoves may be used in portions of units approved by the Department. Upon a finding of extreme fire hazard by the Department no person shall smoke or build fires in portions of units other than those designated by the Department for such purposes. Maybe I'll send her to court with a copy of the above PDF, the fact that it was an existing rock fire ring, a pathetic look on her face and hope for leniency. She's just out of college, unemployed so the $480 online payment they are asking for is a boatload of money. The ranger took a picture of the fire but not my daughter. I feel bad that I didn't warn her but I was not aware of the requirements. I guess most of my camping in the area has been on BLM property. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bubbagums 42 Posted May 4, 2014 Out of control government. $500 for a fire in the dirt? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bagstr 287 Posted May 4, 2014 Excuse me for noting there are signs at the entrances of All the popular roads in ABDSP. Does anyone stop and read? How many people and campers are using Tapiado per year do you think? How long does it take the ashes to disperse in the desert environ? I agree that $5 bills is steep, but what would I charge to clean-up after all the un-informed campers in the park. It is Not BLM rules out there. Many of us here on the site are big into taking responsibility for ourselves, so I recommend we pay our grazing fees and pick up after ourselves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHunter 15 Posted May 4, 2014 http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/638/files/AnzaBorregoDesertPDF.pdf "Anza-Borrego Desert State Park is the largest state park in California. Five-hundred miles of dirt roads, 12 wilderness areas and miles of hiking trails provide visitors..." Nice that that there are established fire rings along the 500 miles of dirt roads. FIRES AND FIREWOOD: Please be cautious when building fires. Fires are allowed only in established fire rings or camp stoves. Do not build ground fires outside the fire rings or leave campfires unattended. Do not gather firewood in the park––the nutrients must be allowed to recycle back into the ecosystem. You may purchase firewood from the camp hosts. Bill - your daughter probably used one of these "established fire rings" she found in the back country. Nowhere on this information page does it say it has to be metal. I'm sure she probably read this information, found a ring and used it to obey the rules as outlined above. Ken, Citation shows "Illegal Ground fire" and 4311. Here is what I found online for 4311: 4311. Fire in Stoves, Smoking. No person shall light, build, use, or maintain a fire within a unit except in a camp stove or fireplace provided, maintained, or designated for such purpose, unless by authority of the Department. Portable camp stoves may be used in portions of units approved by the Department. Upon a finding of extreme fire hazard by the Department no person shall smoke or build fires in portions of units other than those designated by the Department for such purposes. Maybe I'll send her to court with a copy of the above PDF, the fact that it was an existing rock fire ring, a pathetic look on her face and hope for leniency. She's just out of college, unemployed so the $480 online payment they are asking for is a boatload of money. The ranger took a picture of the fire but not my daughter. I feel bad that I didn't warn her but I was not aware of the requirements. I guess most of my camping in the area has been on BLM property. Their own publicly available document and the law itself does not say anything about a metal container. The first line in the law is good,,,"provided, maintained or designated for such purpose..." There's no way your daughter could have known that the fire ring she used was not provided, maintained or designated. I read a bit and understand the rationale is to eliminate fire/ash "scarring" but didn't know about the requirement either. I wonder if the boards at the different entrance points - if every entry point has one - did the one she use have one? - says anything about metal containers. I agree we should care for the land out there and the metal container makes sense, but I also wonder if the Rangers patrol there, is it not their responsibility to find illegal fire rings, abate the ashes and eliminate the fire ring so nobody else uses it? What DID happen to the fire ring? Did the Ranger abate the ashes and destroy it? Is it still there? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulmbowers 236 Posted May 5, 2014 Did the Ranger abate the ashes and destroy it? If they did, and they did an excellent job, would that make the rangers master abaters? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dirtdiver 2 Posted May 5, 2014 A $500 ticket for using a fire ring that had already been there?? A better form of justice would be have the perpetrators clean and remove the blackened debris. The task is done in an hour, the perpetrators will remember, the park is cleaner and the courts are not burdened. Somewhat off topic but I can't help but jump in. There are just too many people in this neck of the woods. Everyone with their own agenda of what is the right environmental balance all aligning with their own interests. We were out there a month ago for the KKug mystery ride and we come upon 3 rangers driving in a brand new hybrid Toyota Highlander at about $55K. Two years ago I was getting personal emails from the Picatcho ranger asking for donations to keep the park open. I agree that we are over regulated and with too much government but I think the underlying cause is too many people in too little space. That is why I like Mexico. Talk about freedom! Steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spaugh 1 Posted May 5, 2014 the park would be a lot better off erecting some donation boxes at the entrances to trail heads. All attending are due $5 in the donation box for the day rather than strong arming people for 500$ for having a camp fire in a rock ring. Just my opinion. To the original poster, I'm sure they will lessen the fine or toss it if she fights it. They are counting on you not to fight it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hobiee 28 Posted May 5, 2014 the park would be a lot better off erecting some donation boxes at the entrances to trail heads. All attending are due $5 in the donation box for the day rather than strong arming people for 500$ for having a camp fire in a rock ring. Just my opinion. To the original poster, I'm sure they will lessen the fine or toss it if she fights it. They are counting on you not to fight it. But then they have to pay someone to drive around and empty the payment boxes everyday. Even if it is a better idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHunter 15 Posted May 5, 2014 Yes - but are they posted at all entry points to the park? me donation the park would be a lot better off erecting soboxes at the entrances to trail heads. All attending are due $5 in the donation box for the day rather than strong arming people for 500$ for having a camp fire in a rock ring. Just my opinion. To the original poster, I'm sure they will lessen the fine or toss it if she fights it. They are counting on you not to fight it. Agreed. x2 I've always seen the fine lowered if you show up in person. Unless the person is confrontational with the judge/commissioner - which is never a good idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bikeslut 1 Posted May 5, 2014 Also, don't ever tell the judge "it's NOT "your" courtroom, it's MINE...i'm a taxpayer..." repeat...don't...if you do, they make you hang out all afternoon, in a large holding cell, with a bunch of criminals, on something called "contempt of court" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Afry 1 Posted May 5, 2014 Excuse me for noting there are signs at the entrances of All the popular roads in ABDSP. Does anyone stop and read? How many people and campers are using Tapiado per year do you think? How long does it take the ashes to disperse in the desert environ? I agree that $5 bills is steep, but what would I charge to clean-up after all the un-informed campers in the park. It is Not BLM rules out there. Many of us here on the site are big into taking responsibility for ourselves, so I recommend we pay our grazing fees and pick up after ourselves. Wow, ashes really? Let's see maybe one wind storm and it's gone? I realize this is a heavily used area and I am not offended by campfire sites or tire tracks. That's what happens when they force us all into one small (relatively speaking) area due to land closures. What's next, sweeper brooms on the back of our fenders to remove the tire tracks? "Many of us on this site are big into taking responsibility for ourselves"...didn't you show me a "trail" off the mountain that is in the park? Having said that I try to follow the rules, I doubt Bill's daughter knew she was breaking them and $500 is too punitive for the crime. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
paulmbowers 236 Posted May 5, 2014 If this citation is like others with which I've had experience, the $500 is the "bail amount" not the fine. Most of us will send in the bail amount and sacrifice it to avoid the hassle of an appearance (and it's usually worth it) but the actual fine is different. A court appearance will decide the fine, if any. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robertaccio 405 Posted May 5, 2014 i like the shotgun blast on the no shooting sign best of all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites