Why did you stop racing District 38 races?

[SDlineman 0]

The amount of people signing up for D38 desert races has been dwindling over the last couple of years. I am sure the economy has something to do with it, but we are looking for some other, hopefully controllable reasons that this is happening. There is a pretty lively discussion about a few of the issues current members are complaining about, but please don't let it influence your answer here. Thanks

[robertaccio 406]

I have raced local D races in the past. I have no interest in 80 mph pole line and 80 mph sand washes and whoops for days. D37 dez races (well the D37 Nat H&Hs anyway) are more single track oriented tough long dez races.

Single track, technical ugly stuff (like the Nat H&H) Tight woods, challenging obstacles. In other words for me slower but technically more challenging is where my head is. That can be done out there, but most dez minded folks dont like that stuff that stops them and the complaints will fly if there are too many rocks and tough to climb hills and scary descents.

Dez enduro may bring some folks back, us old guys can rip well enough for special tests then get a break on transfers instead of pounding out 100 miles pinned (more chance for injury). ANyway thats my take, that is my opinion only and its what I like to ride/race. I am only one guy. Ive been racing steady for few years again now, just not local dez races. RN

[bikeslut 1]

I don't race because:

I'm slow... I don't need 50 dust raising friends to prove it to me

I'm stubborn... I don't WANT to be the last guy to finish; I want to be first

and

I'm fragile... trying to be first, when so many are more gifted, lucky, hard working, on better bikes- is going to land me in the hospital or worse

and I'm slow

I know I already said that, but I don't see that going out there and affirming it with witnesses does me any good.

i much prefer a good trail ride; If i'm the slow guy, no worries (because we aren't racing)... i don't HAVE to ride in the dust; I'll wait it out... If somebody gets hung up on an obstacle, we can help him, or take pictures and laugh.

I did some racing on two wheels a long time ago... i wasn't very good then, and wouldn't be very good now

[daijones 0]

Good question.

I have never ridden any D38 races as from all accounts/reports they are way too fast, dusty for me. Totally agree with Rob on all accounts, we enjoy the same technical single track challenging stuff, we race the fun stuff, Los Ancianos, BORCS, Tractor Racing in Baja and a few D37 races, I also race some D36, REMEC and AMRA and will travel further for good races, plus I fly to UK several times a year to race there. So unfortunately while I have never raced a D38 event I would rather drive 500+ miles to something I know I would enjoy, now if they were to run races at Corral Canyon or McCain or private single track and do the fun stuff I would certainly race, heck I would help with doing anything also.

[PastaPilot 17]

...

...

Yup. What they said.

Except for the flying to UK part.

I haven't participated in the races Robert and Dai bring up because of employment commitments but I look forward to participating in the type of races they've mentioned in the future.

[racerbill 0]

I rode a few D-38 desert "moto cross" races and I have the same issues as Rob. D-38 courses were to whooped out and not technical enough I'm also NOT a fan of allowing pre-running. There were a few times when course cutting was really bad, it's a real pisser to pass the same slow guy 3X's on the same lap. I rode a lot of D-37 events really liked the challenge of a technical course.

[dirt dame 559]

I stopped racing district 38 races back in the mid 70s when they discontinued the MX division of it. Later on in the mid 80s, I picked it up again to compete in enduro events, but as others have stated, I didn't really like desert style high speed enduros. The best district 38 enduro that I ever rode, was held at Corral Canyon in 1984 or 1985.

I think that desert racing is just losing momentum. Gas prices are high, people are interested in dualsport, singletrack, and closed course racing events at MX parks that are closer to home. Just a sign of the times.

[Spaugh 1]

they need to do some hare and hound races. not 100 miles of straight lines with whoops.

the district is talking about doing more surveying but the backside of superstition where all the good technical stuff is, is exempt from surveying (meaning, we can use it free of charge). None of the clubs are using it. RR was using it for the national hare and hound.

The race out at pine valley looked like an awesome course, I regret not going to that one.

I'll be out at the OTB race helping out and will probably try and do the christmas classic. I've done that one in the past and its a lot of fun. My only complaint with the euro scrambles, is the team races are too short.

[SDlineman 0]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Adding some technical terrain is one of the things on our list, we have some people working on GPSing new routes for courses right now, and we have the money to pay for the necessary surveys, so I am hoping this is one area that will improve in the near future. I don't think bringing Enduros back is on the list, but I will be sure to suggest it. As far as the dust goes, would it make any difference if they had staggered starts instead of the mass starts? I'm not sure if there is much else that can be done about the dust on the course. We have had water trucks for the bomb run, but it doesn't do any good on the rest of the course.

Any other suggestions?

[robertaccio 406]

One more thing, Thanks to all the clubs and promoters of the sport. Thanks to SD Lineman for even asking the populace this question.

BS and others concerning the "race" word, you are wrong (IMHO). We have such a fun time at the races it forms a bother/sisterhood among us.

Your comparative speed means nothing it's never about anyone else its always about you and the course and enjoying a good ride. And lots of courses have better scenery and S/T trails cut than the usual trails (the Gorman 2 day qualifier used the pine forest wilderness area S/T that is closed to motorized vehicles except for the permitted enduro, it was an amazing trail).

Everyone going the same direction, chase riders, medical help EMT/helo support, check points, enduro/xc is safer than trail riding. Plus if you ride (not race) the course, results will come automatically, there are classes for everyone. I must add that I am a closed course offroad event rider, the open course fast Baja/long distance/rally stuff is off my menu as well.

Oh yea about the slow comment, I have been in races for years and been lapped by world class top tier moto guys (the list of names is well known and is very long), I am a slug in comparison to even the top level experts and they get owned by the pro level guys. I AM SLOW too.

Some names dropped that have blown by me on the trail that come to immediate mind- Trussardi,Staten,Hatch,Roeseler,Ramirez,Graffunder,Trolli,Garrahan(both) etc etc

[Uncle Champ 116]

I'm slow, low on talent and have trouble telling what color the ribbons marking the course are, and whoops suck.

[KTMrad 508]

Age ?!! Alright, I'm not that old...but I roadraced for a couple years about 12 years ago...was awesome, best adrenalin rush besides skydiving...but after doing it for awhile, realized I'd rather travel and see places than spend money & time on racing.

Same goes for dirt racing...and I know I'd be one of the slower guys in a race...don't like to be the slow one. I prefer trail riding, travelling and seeing places to racing. When trail riding and travelling, I can ride my own pace and really enjoy the ride and scenery. That's just what I prefer.

Maybe D38 should try putting on more of an enduro type event with tougher trails in it ?

[Guest Crusty]

I raced BMX MX GP's , MTB's . and1 Score San Felipe 250

After San Felipe I figured I could never get a better sig PIC.

After years of training long hours, being dedicated to racing , traveling and

waisting thousands and thousands of dollars for trophies???

I realized how much more fun it was to stay here on the beach in Carlsbad,

be a Surfer 1st. and recreational rider 2nd.

If you can stage a race here in Carlsbad I am IN..........

Craig.

[kkug 146]

I thought that the BLM prevented the races from being more technical due to land use issues .???

[Goofy Footer 539]

I'm actually thinking of participating in a few races this coming year. I've been looking at race bikes, reading up on training and fitness/nutrition. I'm in the target audience of "new racers" that D38 is shooting for.

(Huge caveat, I don't think I'm fast, I'd participate in racing for fun, to keep in shape and for sport. I have a life, racing isn't my life. I don't want to get hurt, I want it to be fun.)

SDlineman, I wrote you a novel of a response but I deleted it on accident, dammit. I have some thoughts, maybe I'll catch you at the track sometime and we can talk more.

Here is the Cliff Notes version:

1. Information: To attract a true noob racer, please provide more information about the "experience" of racing, the event and the clubs. I don't understand the district thing, I don't know the difference between the clubs, I don't know where "the dip" is. Its somewhat intimidating to drive all the way out there, throw down an entry fee and race when I don't really know much of what is going on.

2. The Forum: I have read some threads on the forum and to be honest, I have not gotten a good vibe. In a thread to thank Pay it Forward for their Pala GP, it Quickly turned into everybody bashing one guy for asking for race results, to that guy replying and calling out another poster and asking for a fight, to some old timers ranting and ranting. There seems to be a lot of blatant bashing on the forum. Seems like lots of egos, old timers vs noobies etc. I get the vibe that old school desert racers are living in a past era and they don't want to change with the times nor accept new people. Many people's main argument is "What have you done for the club? Why don't you volunteer and donate etc?" If I attend a race and pay my $60 entry fee, isn't that good enough? Geez, I'm a paying customer. Clearly desert racing isn't for everybody and it doesn't consume everybody's life. If D38 wants to attract more new racers, people like me, I'm going to take my sweet time and ease my way into the scene to see if its the right fit for me. The bashing on the forum is a huge turnoff and the few loud voices don't represent the group well. Sorry, but I'm not interested in the politics, I just want to have fun.

3. Results: I read the 95 responses on the thread. Yes, if I do participate in a race, I want to see how I did. In every form of sports I have ever participated in, I knew my score or placement. I was quite surprised to see that results could take 2 weeks. If D38 doesn't provide results, I'd consider going to D37 or another venue that did.

4. Marketing: Go on ADV's "Racing" section, there are a few ongoing racing threads from D37 guys and about groups of racers from Colorado/Utah. At many large dual sport events, I see trucks with the D37 stickers on them. I can't recall the last time I saw any marketing from D38.

5. Change of the times: My friends who still ride, ride track or dual sport. This can be attributed to the cost associated with going to the desert for a weekend, land closures etc etc. Mixing up the types of races (to me) is key. It will attract different types of racers/riders. Why is D38 seemingly solely focused on desert racing? Aren't they the off-road district of the AMA? San Diego has more to offer than Plaster City. Run a circuit of different types of races, GPs, Hare Scrambles, Enduros and Desert Races over the course of the year and different riders will attend these events. A MX rider may attend a GP, a hard core enduro go may attend a Hare Scramble, that is how you will get new riders. A desert race every 3 weeks for an entire season is too much for me. I want variety.

Well, this post still turned into a novel anyways. All in all, I would consider doing a race, but the forum is a big turn off. D38 has a lot of competition for racers (IMHO) I could go on ADV and meet up with guys to run V2R, the Mexican 1000, D37 Hare and Hounds, local vintage races etc. SDlineman, thanks for posting this, I hope I don't come off in the wrong manner. I look forward to riding with you at a track sometime, maybe the newly renovated Elevation MX??

[SDlineman 0]

Hey Brad, I agree with you, the National H&H 2 years ago was great, would like more of those. I didn't see your post until now. I didn't realize there were areas that didn't need to be surveyed either. Maybe the people that are laying out the courses need to be made aware of it? Maybe we need to survey some trails leading into there? I would like to find out more about that.

Kkug, the only land issues I am aware of is that someone declared the whole area as an archeological site, and now every race course needs to be surveyed to be sure that we arent running over any artifacts (even though you can ride anywhere you want if it's not a sanctioned event). We aw working on opening up some new ones. Thanks again everyone, keep the ideas coming.

[Spaugh 1]

I thought that the BLM prevented the races from being more technical due to land use issues .???

No. Its the clubs that don't want to do it. Like I said the backside of superstition is open for racing. No surveys required. Just need some clubs to do a hare and hound and I'll be there.

[Spaugh 1]

Hey Brad, I agree with you, the National H&H 2 years ago was great, would like more of those. I didn't see your post until now. I didn't realize there were areas that didn't need to be surveyed either. Maybe the people that are laying out the courses need to be made aware of it? Maybe we need to survey some trails leading into there? I would like to find out more about that.

Kkug, the only land issues I am aware of is that someone declared the whole area as an archeological site, and now every race course needs to be surveyed to be sure that we arent running over any artifacts (even though you can ride anywhere you want if it's not a sanctioned event). We aw working on opening up some new ones. Thanks again everyone, keep the ideas coming.

the clubs are aware of it. they all have a map of the surveyed area and approved courses. The map covers all of PCW, PCE, and Superstition and is covered with lines indicating the approved routes. And then there is one big block of shaded area on the backside of superstition that is open for use no survey required.

The problem is it is very nasty terrain and most novice and beginner riders can't make it very far back there. So now half of your entrants aren't capable of riding the course. So then they make a stink and stop showing up. You are damned either way.

Personally I'd like to see short (say 40-50mile) hare and hound courses that are MUCH more technical. Like where people are off their bikes and catching their breath technical. Maybe 1 loop of easier terrain through the mountain, then one kick your ass into the ground loop through the backside. :evil: But majority of desert racers don't want that.

[SDlineman 0]

Goofy Footer, great post, thanks. I agree with everything you said. I had started that post you were talking about with a joke about results trying to keep all that from happening, but obviously it didn't work. I don't see any of that at the races, though, so don't think that is how everyone acts all the time. I go into the races with the same attitude as you, I'm not going to win any of them, so I just go out to ride hard and have fun.

As for the scoring,it baffles me why anybody wouldn't want it, except maybe afraid of the change or the transition.

I want to try out that new track, too. Post up next time you want to head out there.

[daijones 0]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Adding some technical terrain is one of the things on our list, we have some people working on GPSing new routes for courses right now, and we have the money to pay for the necessary surveys, so I am hoping this is one area that will improve in the near future. I don't think bringing Enduros back is on the list, but I will be sure to suggest it. As far as the dust goes, would it make any difference if they had staggered starts instead of the mass starts? I'm not sure if there is much else that can be done about the dust on the course. We have had water trucks for the bomb run, but it doesn't do any good on the rest of the course.

Any other suggestions?

Sure that staggered starts would help with the dust, that's what is done in most hare scrambles I ride where you 1 or 2 classes per row, fastest first of course, then a minute or 2 between rows. Then in enduros/qualifiers/restarts/ISDE you have typically a max of 4 per row and a minute between rows so dust is even less of an issue (and if done with faster classes starting in order even better). Then when you make the terrain more technical and slower you get less dust kicked up and of course even if there are places where it gets a bit dusty it's not so dangerous with lower speeds.

[Jim 0]

2. The Forum: I have read some threads on the forum and to be honest, I have not gotten a good vibe. In a thread to thank Pay it Forward for their Pala GP, it Quickly turned into everybody bashing one guy for asking for race results, to that guy replying and calling out another poster and asking for a fight, to some old timers ranting and ranting. There seems to be a lot of blatant bashing on the forum. Seems like lots of egos, old timers vs noobies etc. I get the vibe that old school desert racers are living in a past era and they don't want to change with the times nor accept new people. Many people's main argument is "What have you done for the club? Why don't you volunteer and donate etc?" If I attend a race and pay my $60 entry fee, isn't that good enough? Geez, I'm a paying customer. Clearly desert racing isn't for everybody and it doesn't consume everybody's life. If D38 wants to attract more new racers, people like me, I'm going to take my sweet time and ease my way into the scene to see if its the right fit for me. The bashing on the forum is a huge turnoff and the few loud voices don't represent the group well. Sorry, but I'm not interested in the politics, I just want to have fun.

The few races I did while I lived in El Centro (TRX-450 quad and, yes once on the mighty Girl Bike!) and the professional interactions I had with the Clubs/D38 as part of my job on the base IRT the bombing ranges, led me to feel similar, but different. I had the advantage of meeting Chip Corfman while he still had Threat Racing open, and that was a great intro, even if I was riding a quad. Great guys when you got to know them, but boy, to the outsider who's only introduction was the website and forum, you could really get the exact same idea that Goofy got. Seems like a very dysfunctional lot of people/clubs/district. They are, as one friend that also raced a little described it, a dumpster fire. Some clubs are great, but the general outward impression is not good.

[Covered in Dust 162]

I got older, Fud died, it's to hot, it's to cold, gas is to expensive, kids in baseball. I could go on and on why I quit doing District 38 races. Plus I know that at race speeds I was going to get seriously hurt sooner or later.

Covered in Dust

[akcooper9 0]

I've done a few races...had fun etc...

My biggest issue is the races are always on SUNDAY....IMHO Saturday would be better

[daijones 0]

The problem is it is very nasty terrain and most novice and beginner riders can't make it very far back there. So now half of your entrants aren't capable of riding the course. So then they make a stink and stop showing up. You are damned either way.

Personally I'd like to see short (say 40-50mile) hare and hound courses that are MUCH more technical. Like where people are off their bikes and catching their breath technical. Maybe 1 loop of easier terrain through the mountain, then one kick your ass into the ground loop through the backside. :evil: But majority of desert racers don't want that.

Not knowing the area you are talking about but to include very nasty terrain and not make it so most novice and beginner riders can't get thru you have easy/hard splits with the easy route taking a longer way around the hard stuff. You label it clearly and and tell eveyone at the riders meeting on in riders instructions how tough the hard section is, i.e. is it A only, or A/B suitable, if lower class riders want to give it a go fine but they can't (or shouldn't) complain.

[JohnnyAirtime 2]

... thread resurrection. ;)

I ran across this thread, because I was looking to see what happened to the AMAD38/forum.  Google brought me here.

It looks like the forum is gone. Probably for the better.

I did go out and enjoy watching the D38 opener this past weekend. Pretty good turnout I thought.
... and, the course was as most of you don't like.  FAST!!  I mean, a 20 mile lap... and Justin Morgan was around in 20-24minutes. The slower guys, were around in 30-40minutes.  Still fun to watch... even though, overly dusty in the AM with wind coming up later (thank goodness).

I stopped racing the D38 events in 2007'ish. Can't remember now. But mostly because of the drama. Yes, I created a lot of the drama myself (on the forum especially)... but, it was because I was asking about cheating. Asking questions others wouldn't, and asking those questions because of not only what I noticed... but others I know (friends and family). Quickly, my name was mud... and I was even challenged (pretty aggressively) by two families and a club in the pits. Wondering why I wrote down a racers number for NOT being on course (I worked that race, due to my bike being broke).    ... the funny part?! I gave'em two laps and decided the 3rd time, I was writing down the number. I had no idea who the racer was (at the time)... but of course, post race I realized it was the younger son of the family I was calling out in previous races (for cheating). He too, came out from their pit camp and said; "so this is Airtime?!", all puffy chested. All 120lbs! HAHA.   Even another racers Dad got into it, saying; "What's up Airtime, you pissed your getting your ass handed to you?!".... from the Dad of the 16+ yr old son, I am usually passing at 34+ yrs old. It was only a handful of those I was challenging, or "calling out" for cheating. But they were the mascots of the D38 community, and should have known better than to allow such to happen.

Like I said, I created some of the drama by observing and asking sensitive questions. Nobody else was, and I couldn't just let my (and others) observations go unnoticed.  Once I did that, my "fun" factor went to zero and as I said... my name was 'mud'. I just stopped going to D38 all together.

Unlike others, I liked the WFO racing. I was there to run the course and see how I faired against others. Practicing for Baja races, and to keep my strength up for holding it WFO for long lengths of time. I enjoyed the challenges of dust, other fast racers, and banging bars with other experts or trying with pro level riders. 

If someone wants to race a Baja event, I believe the D38 courses/events are one of the better to prepare yourself. If you have no reason to want to race Baja, then the D38 courses aren't too appealing. Unless, that Baja race is something along the lines of the Los Ancianos Tecate Hare Scramble...  then, D37 is your better bet to prepare (in my opinion).

... I know I probably said too much, or should have just scrolled on by but... since the question was asked (albeit in 2012 - LOL!).

** I hope your enjoying my sarcasm **