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I am not sure of the correct term but it is a good idea to have your Spot and GPS using the same protocol. I recently had the pleasure of 1.) losing my Spot, 2.) calling home to get the last track coordinate, 3.) inputing said coordinate into my handheld GPS only to find out that the coordiante showed the Spot was in Poway whereas I lost it along the fence between Tecate and Jacumba. One unit was reading degrees and minutes and the other was reading decimal (explained by my son as I don't totally understand it). Different protocols I think?

Probably a good practice test is to have someone hide your spot and give you the coordinates off of the Spot site to find it. Probably better practiced before you need it for real.

Bob

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Not different protocols, just different display of units. For example 7:00 pm vs 1900 or 0.5 vs 1/2. Same value just displayed differently. Just understand which you are looking at. Most devices should be able to show either. The decimal format is just the seconds divided by 60.

As a Navigator onboard ship in the Navy we always had to watch out for that.

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Great reminder Bob.

Most don't know the differences, and yes... entering one and not knowing if it's in the same "unit format" will definitely put you in the wrong place.

For example, I often hear people asking why all the numbers don't fit to the right of the decimal point. A sure sign your entering the wrong format!

Here's a Garmin 60CSx manual for those using a Garmin 60 series (see page 74 of the manual - "position format");
http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/GPSMAP60CSx_OwnersManual.pdf

Some good tips and tricks for the newer user;
http://www.asiteaboutnothing.net/g_60csx.html

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This has been an issue at least twice that I'm aware when calling for air medical evac. I'm not too GPS savvy- but I realize there are different systems, and can thumb my way to the part of the GPS that can change the format.

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One step further... for those with SPOT, and a Garmin device.

One of my SPOT "check in OK" coordinates (same format used in "tracking" on a SPOT device);
N34 59.164 W114 41.494

The correct Garmin setting, for this same format (picture is of a Nuvi, but gives you same idea)

garmin_nuvi_680_44.jpg

As well, I attached two files from my own Garmin 60CSx that show correct format in the "settings" and in a "test" waypoint.

...Enjoy!

With many people using Google Earth to plan trips... it's good to know this page exists;
http://www.earthpoint.us/convert.aspx

(it also does a great job about half way down of describing coordinate types or positions)

Simply, Google Earth requires you to enter decimal or "DMS" format

Example; https://support.google.com/earth/answer/148081?hl=en&topic=2376017&ctx=topic

Or in Google Earth you can change how waypoint locations are viewed by going to;
<tools> <options> and in the <3dview> tab, under "Show Lat/Long"... make your needed change

Or if your using Google maps... There are three accepted formats;

  • Degrees, minutes and seconds (DMS): 41° 24' 12.1674", 2° 10' 26.508"
  • Degrees and decimal minutes (DMM): 41 24.2028, 2 10.4418
  • Decimal degrees (DDD): 41.40338, 2.17403

If you really want to get tricky, you can convert your own GPS locations by using a GPS Time Conversion Table and doing your own math. I would never do such a thing, as I'm somewhat dyslexic and there's just too many auto-conversion apps out there. Why make something so easy, so hard?!

I REALLY wish they were all the same, with only one format available to us. Sure make life easier!!

post-14-0-59431400-1407942337_thumb.jpg

post-14-0-80737400-1407942349_thumb.jpg

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This has been an issue at least twice that I'm aware when calling for air medical evac. I'm not too GPS savvy- but I realize there are different systems, and can thumb my way to the part of the GPS that can change the format.

This shouldn't "usually" be a problem for anyone on the receiving end of a 911 or medical emergency call.... they should ALL know how to convert, or know what type of Lat/Lon your giving them as long as you read it to them correctly. If not, they need to be replaced by someone who DOES know... I mean, GPSs are used all over the world, by travelers and alike. Those types of problems, should be gone by now. ...in my opinion anyway. :)

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This shouldn't "usually" be a problem for anyone on the receiving end of a 911 or medical emergency call.... they should ALL know how to convert, or know what type of Lat/Lon your giving them as long as you read it to them correctly.

I understand. I know.

All I can do is offer my experience.

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http://www.findmespot.com/en/faq/

Spot uses Decimal Degrees, not decimal minutes or seconds. The issue is what format due the Rescue Rangers use to find U.

SPOT uses the Global Positioning System datum: World Geodetic System 84, or WGS 84, expressed in the decimal degrees coordinate format. For example, SPOT headquarters in Covington, LA would appear as Latitude 30.43312 and Longitude -90.08694. To convert your SPOT decimal degree coordinates into degrees, minutes, seconds use the conversion calculator on FCC.gov (http://transition.fcc.gov/mb/audio/bickel/DDDMMSS-decimal.html).

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The confusion about which I personally know is with the rescue aircraft.

I believe the BikeSlut Helo rescue and the guy off Tecate Peak both had similar issues. Both were resolved, and I posted only to let others know they MAY or MAY NOT experience the same confusion.

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This has been an issue at least twice that I'm aware when calling for air medical evac. I'm not too GPS savvy- but I realize there are different systems, and can thumb my way to the part of the GPS that can change the format.

This shouldn't "usually" be a problem for anyone on the receiving end of a 911 or medical emergency call.... they should ALL know how to convert, or know what type of Lat/Lon your giving them as long as you read it to them correctly. If not, they need to be replaced by someone who DOES know... I mean, GPSs are used all over the world, by travelers and alike. Those types of problems, should be gone by now. ...in my opinion anyway. :)

Unfortunately Paul is more right than wrong. As much as you would think that these problems are gone, I can't tell you how many times in the last two years I've read about (and know people in military SAR that have experienced) screw-ups do to simple translation errors. Seem like most of the confusion seems to lie in local law-enforcement that, while they know how to operate a GPS, don't always know about the differences in formats. Spot doesn't send 911 hits to the USAF SAR Rescue Coordination Center in Florida, but rather initially contact the Spot owner, and then local law enforcement. Hence, where most coordinates are "lost in translation". And the general public is also far behind on these translation issues and few know how to translate from one format to the other. I would challenge you to find a buddy, plop down a location in one format and ask him to format it to another. I bet over 90% would look at you with a look of confusion on their face.

There is no one standard amongst military SAR, local SAR, local law enforcement, Spot owners, etc. That is the reason I have shown and tested my wife with the different formats. As soon as she gets a 911 hit, she knows to use a converter and give both types of coordinates to anyone looking for me. Here is an example. A number of people have come close to losing their lives due to simple, stupid mistakes (not theirs) in formatting simple location information.

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... it seems that my post was taken incorrectly. I wasn't not saying someone was wrong or right in their comments, only that this day and age it shouldn't be too hard for any SAR or LEO to get the correct coordinates, and be able to locate the problem.

It just frustrates the crap out of me, when any SAR types don't know how to use the tools in the "search" part of their job.

I know that most of my buddies rarely even turn on a GPS, but that's only because I "got it handled" when they're out riding with me or in "our" group. And, they rely on my to know how to use my SAT phone, SPOT Connect, and any other form of comm. For this reason, I usually have one other (at minimum) who knows the basics in case I'm out cold. So yes, I'm sure there's the majority who wouldn't know where to start when it comes to proper GPS data for any SAR or LEO. I try and inform and educate within the groups I ride with. But.... I get a lot of yawns, and blank stares. :sleeping_02::tired:

It's always a pleasure to ride with those who are just the opposite, and on par. :smile_anim:

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... it seems that my post was taken incorrectly. I wasn't not saying someone was wrong or right in their comments, only that this day and age it shouldn't be too hard for any SAR or LEO to get the correct coordinates, and be able to locate the problem.

It just frustrates the crap out of me, when any SAR types don't know how to use the tools in the "search" part of their job.

I know that most of my buddies rarely even turn on a GPS, but that's only because I "got it handled" when they're out riding with me or in "our" group. And, they rely on my to know how to use my SAT phone, SPOT Connect, and any other form of comm. For this reason, I usually have one other (at minimum) who knows the basics in case I'm out cold. So yes, I'm sure there's the majority who wouldn't know where to start when it comes to proper GPS data for any SAR or LEO. I try and inform and educate within the groups I ride with. But.... I get a lot of yawns, and blank stares. :sleeping_02::tired:

It's always a pleasure to ride with those who are just the opposite, and on par. :smile_anim:

Johnny,

I agree, and wasn't taking your post out of context. Rather I was refuting that nowadays, with the exponential use of GPS, that everyone will/should know how to use GPS and that those types of problems should be gone. I agree they should, but aren't! Most people use GPS with addresses, not with coordinates like we do. It is amazing the number of people in LEO roles that don't know how to convert between the formats is more my take. Similar to what you experience with your rides.

Here is a great webinar (not that I would expect anyone here to participate, except GIS geeks like me) on location standards that is dealing with the same issues we discuss, but rather in urban environment. Just illustrating that these problems are all over the place.

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This happened recently on a rescue on ADVrider in rural AZ where a guy sent an SOS via his Spot and the local law enforcement was unable to locate him for a long time. One of the things I learned from that was changing my Spot HELP message to say This is a HELP message. It is not serious. My location is shown in decimal degrees WGS84 datum. Set GPS same.

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This is a very interesting conversation, and since I'm expecting my first GPS to be in my mailbox later today, this subject has caught my attention. I know I'll have a sharp learning curve a head of me on this subject, and now it seems even more complicated. Maybe I'll just ride with Johnnyairtime for the rest of my riding career.

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....so, what is the preferred setting for our type of use????

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Gents, Check my math, but here is how I try to remember the mental math for the trail.

Decimal Degrees ( Spot ) 33.158417 Minutes . Thousandths / Minute ( GPS ) = 33.09.505

Hold on to the Degrees - Multiply decimal fraction by 60 to get minutes and thousandths. Or Divide minutes and thousandths by 60 to get decimal degrees.

Remember you are only converting the fraction, not the whole degrees

Are you guys buying this?? :shiftyeyes_anim:

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I switched my gps and google earth to decimal so it matches Spot. Seeing the above example helps. A lot. When looking at33.158414 I can see the .15814 is simply 15.814% of an hour or roughly stated 15% of 60 is 9 minutes.

Much better to be confused now and figure it out than laying there beat and broken trying to figure it out. Who knew?

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This happened recently on a rescue on ADVrider in rural AZ where a guy sent an SOS via his Spot and the local law enforcement was unable to locate him for a long time. One of the things I learned from that was changing my Spot HELP message to say This is a HELP message. It is not serious. My location is shown in decimal degrees WGS84 datum. Set GPS same.

This seems like a good thing to include in any Spot message (especially HELP messages that go to friends/fellow riders). What is the most common or "standard" GPS brand which Emergency Responders use? Garmin/Lorance/others? ie would they most likely use a product which displays Minutes/Seconds or Decimal Degrees?

I don't know much about the context/history of these coordinate system definition/methodologies but for us Garmin users, it seems that Spot might be doing us a dis-service by using Decimal Degrees? Why did they choose to run Decimal Degrees instead of the system which most of their customers (Garmin hikers/adventurers) would be using? Until today, I didn't know they existed and simply used what I believe to be the most standard Minutes/Seconds method

I switched my gps and google earth to decimal so it matches Spot. Seeing the above example helps.

It's definitely good to know the differences now versus later. I appreciate you posting this topic because I never knew about the variabilities in Lat/Long reporting!

I understand that we can convert back and forth (on a Garmin) between the formats but having different GPS units displaying assorted Coordinates may potentially cause some trouble if somebody needs to hand off their GPS or they forget which Coordinate Definition they're using in an emergency. It might be good to write such info on the Garmin itself with a label maker or whatnot.

-ie while not an emergency, I needed extraction/pickup while on a baja ride. Luckily we had radios with relay and I was able to forward my location (in minutes/seconds) to radio relay who then let help know I was there. I had a few people comment to me afterwards that they searched my location on their Garmin and could find me. It was awesome to see the system work correctly when a truck arrived to pick me up.

- another example would be say you're racing the Baja 1000 and have a Spot Tracker. You break down and are stuck at a specific location for 45 minutes. Somebody in the US could follow your Spot page and text the Decimal Degree Spot Coordinates to a Sweep Team or Support Rider via Sat Phone and they would enter the location into their Garmin's (using Minutes/Degrees) to come find you... Is every team member/pit service/racer going to be using Coordinate Methodology X? I'd assume they'll be using whatever default definition came with their GPS unit.

- This also applies if I break down in ABDSP and Spot HELP Message some loyal SDAR friends for extraction. I hope they'd come find me in time (especially considering Spot's sometimes not-so-accurate location tracking and/or transmission errors) :axehead: .

Great Thread!

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Ya know... there's an underlying point nobody has really addressed...

If the person your asking to respond, whether it be blindly or you spoke to them directly.... doesn't recognize the numbers you've given them, and can't tell right from wrong when entering your location into an electronic device.... then, UGH!!. I mean, most people (as I mentioned this before) in the industry should recognize that not all formats are the same, and if you have a different format it's pretty apparent (see below);

My point doesn't come across as I mean it to in text, so a visual is best;

Can you tell a difference in these coordinates (they are all the same location)?
(only one is the same exact format, yet written differently - as it was from a different device)


N30.89530
W116.10548

30° 53' 43.0794"

116° 6' 19.728"

N30 53 43.1

W116 06 19.7

N30 53.718

W116 06.329

I think you'll get my point. At least I hope so.

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One would hope if the coordinates were not recognized by the other party, one could toggle the GPS to the other formats until one arrives at a mutually accepted language. SPOT is pretty easy- simple copy/paste in Google. Will likely work in most GPS as well.

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Numerous apps for Iphone and Android that make the conversion as well if need be. I use a free one called Coordinates Lite for the Iphone. Very basic but does what is needed.

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